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Jordan Wall

The best Architect
« on: December 22, 2005, 03:13:17 PM »
During the early 1900's there were many great courses that were designed.  Some of these include Seminole and Pinehurst#2 by Doanld Ross, Bethpage Black and Baltusrol by A.W. Tillinghast, Cypress Point and Augusta National by Alister Mckenzie, and Fishers Island by Seth Raynor and, of course, Pine Valley by George Crump.  There are other great courses too, but which one of these architects do you think was the best?  Was there even a 'best' architect.

What about newer architects, such as Tom Doak, Tom Fazio, C&C, and others?  Do these newer-aged architects compare to some of the 'older' architects?  Are the courses designed better today or as they were years ago.

I have always been an Alister Mckenzie fan.  Cypress Point is my favorite course in the world, and I love many of his courses.  What are your guys opinions about who is the best architects, and some of these other questions?

JW
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John Kavanaugh

Re:The best Architect
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2005, 03:46:03 PM »
Jordan,

Why do you like Cypress more than NGLA..
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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best Architect
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2005, 03:52:35 PM »
You know... this may just be a great theme for a new website and discussion group...  ;) ;D

Sorry to have some fun at your expense, Jordan.  I couldn't resist. Welcome to GCA.com... ;) ;D 8)
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No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jordan Wall

Re:The best Architect
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2005, 03:54:34 PM »
John,

Cypress Point is just amazing.  Besides the obvious (#15,16, and 17)its routing is so original.  Two par fives, short par fours, and par threes in a row makes that a first.  And how about that opening tee shot that is blind?  I dont know, it all just seems so cool and original to me.  Plus I think #16 is the best hole in the world.  Why do you think NGLA is better?
I dont think NGLA is a bad course, as it is probably in my top five courses, but it just doesnt compare to Cypress Point.
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Jordan Wall

Re:The best Architect
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2005, 03:56:23 PM »
Oh, RJ...I just wanted to post an interesting topic.  I was hoping Patrick Mucci would say something about this...

And dont worry about giving me a hard time.  I really am pretty smrat ::)
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Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best Architect
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2005, 03:56:45 PM »
Jordan,

Some time back (or was it yesterday?) Paul Turner conducted a "Dead Architects Survivor Series" which was nothing more than a thinly veiled ruse to justify his foregone conclusion that Mr. Colt is the greatest architect of all time.

Good luck with that search engine.

Mike
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Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

John Kavanaugh

Re:The best Architect
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2005, 03:59:30 PM »
Jordon,

I havn't played either Cypress or NGLA so I don't have an opinion which is better...from photos I'd have to agree with you that Cypress is better..but not the best in the world.  I think ANGC, TOC and Pebble are all better than Cypress....but I havn't played any of those either.

What are your top five..
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Paul Payne

Re:The best Architect
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2005, 04:04:00 PM »
I don't get it. Are we just guessing at this stuff?

I would imagine it could take a bit more than cursory researching of a few photographs to help us decide which course was the best in the world.

Maybe I'm old school..... nevermind, carry on.
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Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best Architect
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2005, 04:04:40 PM »
Jordan,

I think a lot of the genius behind Cypress Point lies in the journey and experience that the routing takes the golfer through. Blessed with three distinct settings (forest, dunes & ocean), Mackenzie plays with our emotions by allowing the player a glimpse of the ocean as they play up eight, and just an quickly as the anticipation builds, he turns the course the other way. Once the anticipation of the ocean holes (present from the initial drive up 17-Mile Dr.) builds again on the 12th green, Mackenzie's routing does not offer instant gratification, building more over the next two holes, until finally one makes the walk onto the 15th tee.

TK
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Jordan Wall

Re:The best Architect
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2005, 04:06:09 PM »
My top 5...actually 10 :D

1.Cypress Point
2.TOC
3.Sand Hills
4.Augusta National
5.Pine Valley(even though I'm not old enough to play it)
6.National Golf Links
7.Pacific Dunes
8.Cape Kidnappers(just love the course)
9.Oakmont
10.Fishers Island
 
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John Kavanaugh

Re:The best Architect
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2005, 04:07:44 PM »
Paul,

I honestly doubt that if I played any of the above mentioned courses my opinion which is best in the world would be any more or less valid.
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Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best Architect
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2005, 04:08:25 PM »
Quite the list for a 16 year old.....

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Jordan Wall

Re:The best Architect
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2005, 04:11:53 PM »
15 years old.  I want to become an architect when I grow up.  Since my travels, for now, are limited, it is hard to do research on a lot of courses.  From what I can tell these are the best courses.  Just being young doesnt mean I dont know anything-and I'm not saying anyone said that I didnt know anything.  I just want people to know that I really am serious about golf and golf architecture.
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Paul Payne

Re:The best Architect
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2005, 04:12:37 PM »
Valid in the sense that everyone is entitled to their own opinion? Probably not.

Valid in the sense that it is supported by experience or a deeper knowledge of the course and therefore carries more weight? Possibly so.

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Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best Architect
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2005, 04:16:01 PM »
Quote from: Bogey_Hendren on December 22, 2005, 03:56:45 PM
Jordan,

Some time back (or was it yesterday?) Paul Turner conducted a "Dead Architects Survivor Series" which was nothing more than a thinly veiled ruse to justify his foregone conclusion that Mr. Colt is the greatest architect of all time.

Good luck with that search engine.

Mike

eh Bogeyman ;D  that weren't my thread and Mackenzie won it, not Colt :P  Was a good thread though, sorted out the homers from the travelers ;)
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can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Jordan Wall

Re:The best Architect
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2005, 04:18:18 PM »
Didnt Mckenzie do a lot more really good courses then Coltz?  He might not have done Pine Valley, but he did do CPC, ANGC, Crystal Downs and others!
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Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best Architect
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2005, 04:20:36 PM »
Paul,

Facts are sooooo bothersome.  I have yet to golf the ball over the handiwork of your man Colt, but you have indeed convinced me over time there there were none better.  

Also, congrats on the recent wedding.  Be a blessing to your wife.

Keep loitering with intent, good man.

Mike
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Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jordan Wall

Re:The best Architect
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2005, 05:02:37 PM »
What's your top 10?
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Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best Architect
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2005, 05:52:18 PM »
Here's round 7 of the Dead Architect's survivor thread.  Where this was thrashed out (sort of).  I'm sure the other rounds could be found.  

I think the rule was you had to limit you play just to one architect for the rest of you life.  And that you had to play all the courses that the designer claimed at least once(including redesign).  This rule nobbled Ross, much to Mike's chagrin ;-)

 http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=2509;start=0
« Last Edit: December 22, 2005, 06:03:16 PM by Paul_Turner »
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can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best Architect
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2005, 06:01:56 PM »
Ah yes. I do recall attempting to invent and invoke the Lazarus rule for Donald J Ross - to no avail - he remained off the island and dead as a doorknob. :'(

Mike
« Last Edit: December 22, 2005, 06:02:44 PM by Bogey_Hendren »
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Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best Architect
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2005, 06:12:10 PM »
Jordan,
If you haven't figured it out already, the search feature on this site can lead you to a discussion (some of which can be read in one sitting ;)) on many of the most interesting courses in the world. Your top 10 have been talked about many, many times by some of the most knowledgeable people in golf architecture.

Where are you located?
« Last Edit: December 22, 2005, 06:12:47 PM by Craig Disher »
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Jordan Wall

Re:The best Architect
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2005, 06:15:36 PM »
Seattle, WA

Actually there are not many GREAT courses around here but I have still studied many from around the world as well as I could.  It can be hard, but to be an architect no one said it would be easy.  These courses, I feel, represent the best in golf architecture.
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Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best Architect
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2005, 06:36:27 PM »
Jordan,

In a year, when you get your driver's license you should definitely make the trek to Bandon Dunes. Or be more adventurous, and head up to Canada to play three Stanley Thompson gems, Capilano, Banff and Jasper (the latter two are public). It's about 600 miles, so it's no small feat, but there are some excellent golf courses in your relative vicinity.

TK
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Jordan Wall

Re:The best Architect
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2005, 06:46:10 PM »
Have you ever heard of Greywolf in Canada?  Is that worth going to as well?  Canada would definitely be fun, and I cant tell you how badly I want to go to Banff Springs.

I'm also thinking about going to Couer D'alene, but no one really talks about it on this site.  Is it worth going to?
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Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best Architect
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2005, 07:00:05 PM »
Quote from: Shivas on December 22, 2005, 06:49:18 PM
Get off this site tonight and never look back!

Shivas,

Good advice. This young lad has made 48 posts in a short 36-hours since he was granted membership to this erudite group. That type of Tom Paulian effort will surely stunt his growth as a well-rounded individual.

TK
« Last Edit: December 22, 2005, 07:00:29 PM by Tyler Kearns »
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