[Paul Sinclair]

Can anyone here define what is meant by the phrase "character of the course?" It seems to me that "character of the course" is pretty subjective and personal so I'm not sure it has any particular meaning.

I'm curious because our club is looking at the possibility of a major renovation and we have some members who argue against it on the vague notion that some of the proposed ideas may change the "character of the course." How do you respond to that sort of argument?

Is it sort of like pornography - "I can't define it but I know it when I see it?" Or is there some way to objectively define the character of a given course?

Thanks,
Paul Sinclair

[mike_malone]

 Paul,
     I have found it easier in discussions to get people to explain to me what they mean by " make the hole easier" before I try to respond to them. So, my first recommendation is to have them expand on the phrase "character of the course", possibly giving  you an example.

      However, when I saw the restoration of my old club in Vermont I immediately thought " They ruined the character of the course!". I meant they changed what gave the course its distinctiveness---the slope and contours of the greens. If people talk about your course and focus on a particular aspect , changing that "thing" changes the character. So, for instance, if you have the "whisper" bunkers of Royal County Down and they are gone you have changed the character.

[Jim Thompson]

Paul,

I would first ask those throwing the term about to define it.  For some it could mean an aesthetic presentation or to others the dreaded shot values and options.

To me the character of a course is relative to how it can be played not how it looks.  I feel I am almost certainly in the minority out in the real world.

Cheers!

JT

[Chris Moore]

How many views will a post with "pornography" in the title get?

I often hear character spoken of in terms of large, mature trees.  IMHO, anything but simply killing grass and replanting more on the same earth will change the character of a course.

[Tony_Muldoon]

How many views will a post with "pornography" in the title get?

It's not just that, but how many other halfs, who ignore us when they see the brown stripe down the side of the screen, suddenly pick up on that word?

Good question Paul, can't remember anyone confident enought to make their first post a new thread since that Tom Huckaby chap debuted about a month ago.  Welcome to the madhouse.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Paul,

It is a vague term, and sometimes used to justify a general fear of change, or the inertia that hangs about some clubs.  But when it is a real concern, usually there is something very specific they have in mind, if you probe.

I think the most common example of "changing character" would be a total blow out of a traditional course and replacing it with modern mounded greens, widening play corridors, free form tees replacing square ones, etc.  As Jim says, most will be about the visuals of the course.

If it really is about play, it could be addressed by asking the member(s) what the one thing they think the course is best known for.  If its tricky greens, the course could be rebuilt, but keep the tricky greens (or at least the best examples of them)  If its Sugar Maple trees and narrow fairways, the course should be able to retain those.

If its the lemonade at the halfway house, give your gca a free hand!  Then suggest that the primary characters that should change are several that currenty inhabit the clubhouse!


 

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:

I think the character of a course, though hard to define, is real and tangible.

Years ago I was with Lorne Rubenstein and the green chairman of a course north of Toronto -- I can't remember the name.  I had never seen it before, but when we stepped on the first tee, I asked Lorne who had added the bunkers through the dogleg.  It was just so obvious they didn't fit with everything else laid out in front of me, visually or strategically.  The green chairman replied that Ron Garl had added those bunkers about five years earlier in a remodel.

[David Druzisky]

my dictionary (yes I am the yutz this time to look up the term) has 15 definitions for character.  Several more for characteristic.  Pick any of them not having to do with printing and the alphabet.

Character is often what you need to be most aware of and considerate of when working with an existing club.  Character can be very personal and emotional to many.  Sometimes it may be a bad character we need to address.

Ditto to Jeffs Post.

Another example - When Confidential Guide came out I think a lot of guys thought of TD as a real "character".  

DbD

[Dan Kelly]

Is it sort of like pornography - "I can't define it but I know it when I see it?" Or is there some way to objectively define the character of a given course?

Welcome, Paul.

And now this: I can't stand it!

I want to know why pretty much everyone who ever quotes this formulation (you're not even close to the first here, Paul) -- from the pen of Mr. Justice Stewart (Potter, not Payne) -- gets it wrong. It's obscenity, not pornography, that he claimed to have known when he saw it! I don't believe he ever claimed to have seen any pornography. In fact, he most likely would have denied it -- lest he be Borked (before Borking was cool!).

I don't recall any of his opinions about golf -- and I don't know how to define "character." But I've seen it a few times.

[Paul Sinclair]

Hi Dan,

You're partially correct about the obscenity/pornography thing. The majority opinion by Justices Brennan and Goldberg in the case dealt with the conviction of a movie house for exhibiting a film which a lower court deemed to be "obscene" and therefore in violation of a state obscenity law. So yes, the majority opinion was dealing with an obscenity statute. But Justice Stewart's famous quote was in his concurring opinion, in which he wrote:

"... the First and Fourteenth Amendments criminal laws in this area are constitutionally limited to hard-core pornography. I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that."

Hope this clears up any confusion so that for the inevitable posts which will come later reiterating this hoary (bad play on words - sorry) old quote, people will realize it's okay to use it with either obscenity or pornography.

Best,
Paul

[Dan Kelly]

Paul --

I could say something (allegedly) funny, like "I respectfully dissent" -- but will settle for: Live and learn!

So: Is "Character of the Course" Like Hard-core Pornography?  

Dan

[A_Clay_Man]

"Character" depends on the context it's used. Doesn't it?

Doak's anecdote illustrates when something is out of character. The best i.e. I have ever felt was at SFGC's 13th.

 Remembering back when I was a pre-freshmen, I used the term to describe movement of the terrain, or a quirkiness, not found on flat chicagoland venues. At least thats what I meant, then. I think a great example of a hole with this type of character, is Forrest's 4th at The Hideout.

[RJ_Daley]

Only if hard core pornography exhibits some ass-pect that one might view as outstanding or outside of the average.  

I think character is the exhibition of a trait that is distinguishable from the general background or apart from the average expectations of any person, place or thing.  In order to haver character, there must be something about that person, place, or thing that sets it apart.

In golf courses, I often thing in terms of quirk, that is an original feature, or extraordinary presentation of the course, beyond general expectations as giving the course character.  But there is good character and bad.  Purposefully creating grotesquely bad, deformedly quirky, or unnatural features  on land that doesn't fit the game is probably the porno side of GCA.  Quirk, charm, naturally presented yet playable oddities or conditions are character.

Dan, you have golf playing character, because you have an odd little golf swing that really seems to work.  It is outside of what one would expect as the conventional way to hit the ball.  So, you are not a porno.

I guess that is why we see naked bodies and don't necessarily think of pornography.  It has to exhibit something beyond, or outside of the conventional.  That is why airbrushed glamor shots in Playboy are just naked ladies, whilst grotesque and exploitive depictions in some publications exhibit unnatural, or shocking, tittilating, and degrading subject matter as porno...  You pretty much know it when you see it.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff:

I think the character of a course, though hard to define, is real and tangible.

Tom,

I meant to say the same thing. The TERM is vaguely used by many people who are afraid that change will be worse rather than better.  However, they usually refer to specific things, like different looking bunkers, different width fw, different size greens, new and different earthmoving (usually modern looking features on an old course) etc.

All of those are real and tangible (albeit visual as pointed out earlier) and for you and me, probably easy to define as "out of character."  Perhaps many club members "feel" something is out of character but can't quite distinguish it visually or play wise, they just know.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul,

I think it's a feel, a flavor of the golf course that one's senses detect.  It might be in the realm of style as well.

I view Tom Doak's comment in the context of a disruption to the harmony and continuity of the golf course.

Something his eye-brain detected immediately.

Character might be the style of the course in conjunction with harmony and continuity.

But, I think you're right, it's a sense of the golf course one detects that manifests itself in the term "character".

Let me also thank you for correcting Dan Kelly.
Four years ago he chided me for quoting Justice Potter's comments on pornography.  It's nice to know that I was correct and he was wrong, even if it was four years ago.

[Dan Kelly]

Let me also thank you for correcting Dan Kelly.
Four years ago he chided me for quoting Justice Potter's comments on pornography.  It's nice to know that I was correct and he was wrong, even if it was four years ago.

I respectfully dissent.  

First, because "chide" is such an ugly word for the friendly little note I sent you! (Couldn't have been four years  ago, I don't think. I wasn't here four years ago!)

Second, because it has apparently escaped everyone's attention that Mr. Justice Stewart (Potter, not Ray) was addressing the subject of HARD CORE pornography (a/k/a, under the law extant, "obscenity"), not pornography in general -- which I'm sure he was perfectly well capable of defining!

I quote Paul's quotation of Justice Stewart: "... the First and Fourteenth Amendments criminal laws in this area are constitutionally limited to HARD-CORE [emphasis added -- for the sake of emphasis] pornography. I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that."

The difference between "pornography" and "hard-core pornography" is vital! It is the difference between, say, the National Golf Links of America and ... well, you name the course you don't care for, Patrick!

Mr. Daley says Playboy is not pornography. Au contraire, mon ami! It is pornography writ large! (Very large.) It is merely not "obscenity" (a/k/a "hard-core pornography). Thanks, by the way, for the "compliment" on my golf swing.

May I quote the www.m-w.com definition of "pornography"?

pornography
One entry found for pornography.
Main Entry: por·nog·ra·phy
Pronunciation: -fE
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek pornographos, adjective, writing about prostitutes, from pornE prostitute + graphein to write; akin to Greek pernanai to sell, poros journey -- more at FARE, CARVE
1 : the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement
2 : material (as books or a photograph) that depicts erotic behavior and is intended to cause sexual excitement
3 : the depiction of acts in a sensational manner so as to arouse a quick intense emotional reaction <the pornography of violence>

 ---------- Of course, based on the original Greek meaning of "pornography," a GCA thread about a raters' gathering would qualify!

Just teasin', you raters!

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