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Patrick_Mucci

The more the merrier
« on: December 07, 2005, 06:25:44 PM »
Are there any modern day greens that come close to the 18th green at Sitwell Park ?

A massive, greens within a green concept, coupled with multiple, pronounced tiers.

I thought of # 7 and # 9 at Friar's Head, but, while they have their tiers, they're smaller in scale than the massive multiple tiers at Sitwell.

On older courses I thought of # 1 and # 6 at NGLA, but again, the 1st green is but a fraction of the size of # 18 and lacks the grand scale.  # 6 has the scale, but not the decked tiering.

Have putting speeds and USGA specs conspired to render this type of green obsolete ?

Can someone post a picture of the green ?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2005, 06:26:53 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The more the merrier
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2005, 06:32:35 PM »
Pat -

I'll assume you don't want pictures of the modern day 18th at Sitwell Park. ;D

Here's a pic of the former green

« Last Edit: December 07, 2005, 06:37:22 PM by SPDB »

Gene Greco

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Re:The more the merrier
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2005, 06:45:43 PM »
I believe it is the short par 3 11th at Laurel Links which has several sections and three tiers and is the boldest green I've seen in quite sometime. The tiers are set up left to right with the highest tier on the right and the lowest on the left. Also, the upper tier is set about 10 yards further away from the tee than the lower. Though I refer to these as "tiers"  they would more properly be termed "homesites" - it is a dramatic drop from high to low!
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The more the merrier
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2005, 07:04:06 PM »
Pat, Is it in fact the 18th at Sitweell? I thought it was supposed to have been the 7th? I'm probably wrong. Who was it that posted the images of the current day hole a few years back?

SPDB

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Re:The more the merrier
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2005, 07:14:01 PM »
Tommy (or is it Thomas now?):
Evidently there is some confusion because of Geoff's apparent mislabelling of the picture.

Here is the modern day green (taken from the website of our own Andy Levett, more at http://www.designmentor.co.uk/golf/sitwell_park.htm:




Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The more the merrier
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2005, 07:18:59 PM »
Thanks Sean.

Actually looked up the properties on the image and had forgotten it was Andy that took those. I just got done emailing him.

From memory, I think there was some discrepancy on whether it was a par 3 or par 4 as MacKenzie had suggested in his book, as well as the fact where the hole exists today compared to yesteryear in the round.

The "Thomas" is part of a recovery-thing.

Tyler Kearns

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Re:The more the merrier
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2005, 07:26:56 PM »
Thomas,

Wasn't there some green by Rees Jones at Rancho Santa something or other than featured in the neighborhood of 6 tiers? I think you posted an picture of this hole an eon or so ago.

TK

TEPaul

Re:The more the merrier
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2005, 07:38:25 PM »
The green pictured above is on a 140 yard par 3 at Sitwell Park. That green was highly controversial in 1914 so obviously if one like that was built today it'd be five times more controversial. If the pin was anywhere other than on that back tier balls from anywhere above it or breaking would just rocket off the green. That green had ten feet of fall from back to front.

cary lichtenstein

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Re:The more the merrier
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2005, 07:50:33 PM »
Obviously this green is obsolete, tooooo bad, at a stimp of 4 or 5 it had to be great.

Too bad Donald Ross didn't do it, it would be worshipped.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The more the merrier
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2005, 07:59:53 PM »
Tyler,

I think Pete Dye or another modern day architect designed and built a multi-tier green in California, not far from Monterey.
The name escapes me at the moment, but, it could have been Poppy Hills or some course in that neighborhood.

But, it was strictly a tiered green without any of the wavy internal pitch found in the old green at Sitwell.

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The more the merrier
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2005, 08:08:32 PM »
Tyler,

I think Pete Dye or another modern day architect designed and built a multi-tier green in California, not far from Monterey.
The name escapes me at the moment, but, it could have been Poppy Hills or some course in that neighborhood.

But, it was strictly a tiered green without any of the wavy internal pitch found in the old green at Sitwell.

Carmel Valley Ranch ... I'll try and find an old photo ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Tyler Kearns

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Re:The more the merrier
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2005, 09:08:51 PM »
Mike,

That's it! In terms of scale it might represent a modern version of Sitwell Park, however, as Patrick correctly pointed out, it is strictly tiered, with each tier being relatively flat.

TK

JNC Lyon

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Re:The more the merrier
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2005, 09:20:14 PM »
I believe the 13th at Barnbougle Dunes was modeled after the green at Sitwell Park.  Both are/were par threes.  I haven't played the one at Barnbougle, but it appears in photos to be pretty wavy, but not with as much fall.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The more the merrier
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2005, 09:28:23 PM »
Why wouldn't this green work with a hole requiring a short approach shot, even with a relatively fast green ?

PThomas

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Re:The more the merrier
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2005, 09:56:14 PM »
the green with the biggest drop from fron to back I've ever seen is on the front 9 at Lost Dunes......the caddie told me when the pin is back some people fail to hit it to the top, it rolls back...they try again, it rolls back again, etc..............
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The more the merrier
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2005, 12:23:45 AM »
There is no reason in the world good enough why more greens just like it are built.

Recently, I ran across for the second time in my life, a person who claimed word for word verbatum, They need to blow-up some of the greens on this course. I'm of the opinion any green you can't two putt is not fair.....""

Mind you both gentlemen were succcessful, smart, self-made men who are members at several different hi-profile clubs.

I unbelievably found the power to be totally diplomatic and kept my inner-rage all too myself in a very dark corner of my mind. It then occurred to me that I must be getting old!

But wow, what a ludicrous statement!

Pat Mucci,
Why is it that Tom Paul almost speaks of this green as if he saw it in person himself and as if he knew each and every fold and contour? I thought this thing didn't make it past 1914? Is Tom Paul really Dorian Gray? ;)

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The more the merrier
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2005, 04:45:06 AM »
 8) Put those shades on I'm about to write a dirty word on here, but the 18th at the Belfry fits the description.

I haven't measured it but from memory there must be 12-15ft of movement between the three tiers.  It's huge but still Faldo has criticised it for the lack of useable pin space.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2005, 04:46:38 AM by Tony Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The more the merrier
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2005, 05:23:10 AM »
Patrick, have a look at #13 at Barnbougle Dunes.  Contouring bordering on ridiculous, modelled after the Sitwell Park green.  Around 200 yards long with an elevated tee.  Great fun to play, especially downwind.

Shane Gurnett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The more the merrier
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2005, 05:43:15 AM »


The 13th at Barnbougle Dunes.

Jim Nugent

Re:The more the merrier
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2005, 06:58:33 AM »
Depending on pin placement, looks like the old green itself could be a par 3 or par 4.  

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The more the merrier
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2005, 08:37:25 AM »
Tommy Naccarato,

I"ve heard many people claim that a green that's difficult to two putt is unfair.

Part of me thinks it's the mentality created by the "Hogan" myth.  On in regulation, two putts or better.

And, the perceived element of "fair"

People don't like to be challenged on the putting surface.
They feel that once they reach a green they should be able to skate safely home.

The green pictured at Sitwell doesn't put a premium on putting, it puts a premium on the approach.   As a short hole, one is expected to reach the plateau where the hole is locatied, and, failing that endeavor, one must encounter a putt that is akin to a recovery.  It's an interesting concept.

For years I've played a golf course with three substantively tiered greens, a par 5, a par 4 and a par three.  All require relatively short approach shots.  Two are uphill, and the other downhill.   Despite their short length, whenever a tier is missed, getting down in two is a challenge, especially when going from the higher tier to the lower tier.

Two of the greens have some nice back to front pitch to the back tier, making traversing the tier difficult.  Sometimes when the hole is on the flank of the upper tier, you're better off on the lower tier.

Look at the picture of the green at Sitwell and ask yourself how much fun it would be to approach that green from 30 to 150 yards.

With it's large scale, it's a greens within a green, and as such, missing the tier of choice will effectively force one to think in terms of recovery, rather than putting.

Modern day greens have little or NO character.

Think of all the greens you've seen and think about how many of them can't be recollected.  They're bland, mundane, and indistinquishable.   Then, look at the Black and White photo in this thread and you'll never forget this green.

We need more modern greens with internal character and unique challenges.

JohnV

Re:The more the merrier
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2005, 08:42:44 AM »
The 17th at Bandon Dunes has always reminded me of the pictures of Sitwell Park.  It doesn't have the side to side slopes, but it does have the elevation and different sections.

Philippe Binette

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Re:The more the merrier
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2005, 08:48:54 AM »
What helps at Barnbougle is that the green is made of a series of bowls so, chances are you wont look too stupid if your putt is a bit off, but if it's too much off, than you'll look really stupid...

That's were our thought during construction, does it play like this...

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:The more the merrier
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2005, 09:10:57 AM »
That pic of Sitwell Park reminds me of the 4th at Lost Dunes,
which has 9 (?) feet of elevation change from top to bottom,
of which this pic does not do it justice:


PThomas

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Re:The more the merrier
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2005, 09:26:11 AM »
Scott - that's the one I was talking about!  thanks for posting the picture
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

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