I just got back from a trip to AZ and I was lucky enough to find the time to drive over to San Carlos and play Apache Stronghold on sunday.  (perfect day for golf there 60* sunny with a nice 15-20 mph wind)  I was a little worried about the course based on what I had read here about its conditioning but I am glad I went anyways.  The course was not in perfect shape by any means but it was certainly more than playable.  The fairway grass was brown and dormant but I dont see that as a problem.  There was a couple small places around the greens that werent in great shape that were being worked on a little bit and a couple bunkers that were being edged but all in all the course was in fine shape compared to the rumors of its demise.  If your considering making the trip Id advise you to do so and see one of the best designs in the state bar none IMO.  This was the second time I had the chance to play the Stronghold and I was as impressed this time as I was the first time.  I love the natural contours of the fairways and the wonderfully contoured greens.  I also love the feeling that you get on this course on almost every hole, the feeling that you are alone out there with no other holes or golfers within sight.  That and the Stonghold has a seriously strong set of Par 3s.  All in all make the trip just dont expect the course to be in as good of shape as your country club.  

Ditto with Bill Ari.  With all this discussion about internal green contours I am thinking about heading up that way in the next couple weeks on a day that is not too cold and I was curious about the conditions.  It has really cooled off though the past several days - below freezing up there at night.

Anyone else want to go?

DbD

Bill:

You hit the nail squarely on the head / re: 17th hole directly in the setting sun. It can be absolutely murder to see what is happening -- and that includes even when multiple players are present.

Ditto also on the thoughts regarding the cold -- temps can be vastly different from downtown Phoenix to the San Carlos vicinity.

Ari:

I don't think the supporters of AS have ever wanted to see country club conditions -- but they do want to see more than just a report that says things will get better. I hope to be back in AZ sometime in the spring and if I hear more positive reports I may venture for a fourth visit. But, the theshold is quite high against me doing that right now. Thanks for the update though.

Quote from: Matt_Ward on November 30, 2005, 05:17:02 PM

You hit the nail squarely on the head / re: 17th hole directly in the setting sun. It can be absolutely murder to see what is happening -- and that includes even when multiple players are present.

Yeah, The same thing happens at pebble beach. What a pity!

Just hit the green and it wont be a problem!  LOL  

Gentlemen,

Believe it or not, I did know before we built the 17th at Apache Stronghold that it would play into the setting sun in winter.

We had two choices there:  build the hole as it is, or cut out the last two holes (turning the 16th into the finishing hole) and build two replacement holes somewhere out in the middle of the back nine.  But I didn't see two replacement holes which were all that great.  Would you have rather we'd done that?

It's easy to criticize a golf course for "boilerplate" design theories such as playing into the rising and setting sun, but when you are actually designing a course, you have to weigh those issues against the other options available to you on a given site.  I am sure there are designers who never screw up on the sun angle, but who also routinely fail to build inspiring holes because they are too worried about their formula.

Wish I had something new or positive to say about the conditioning issues at Apache Stronghold, but I don't.

Ari, thanks for the update on conditions.  My son and I are going to be in Phoenix next week, and I've been debating taking the hike to AS.  Given your report on the conditions, I'm going to make the trek.  After late fall (now snow covered) fairways in southern Ontario, it can't be too bad.

David, we'll be there somewhere around Dec 16-18th, if you'd like to hook up.

Tom, of course the answer is you should design the best hole and damn the setting sun.  To do otherwise for an hour late in the day for a month or two in the winter would be folly.  Since I'll try to play it twice in one day, I'll probably get to see it in full light and into the sun (or maybe dark).

After reading other Phoenix threads on here I'm starting to wonder if Phoenix public access golf is an architectural wasteland.  Seems everyone is high on the private clubs.  Do We-ko-pa, Talking Stick, AS, Gold Canyon and Longbow suffer so much in comparison to the top ranked Privates?  On what basis? To other highly ranked courses in sunshine states?  I thought Troon North was pretty special until it got surrounded.

Are Arizona National and Ventana Canyon worth the trip to Tucson for a couple of days, or are there more courses in Phoenix that should be played instead?  

After reading other Phoenix threads on here I'm starting to wonder if Phoenix public access golf is an architectural wasteland.  Seems everyone is high on the private clubs.  Do We-ko-pa, Talking Stick, AS, Gold Canyon and Longbow suffer so much in comparison to the top ranked Privates?  On what basis? To other highly ranked courses in sunshine states?  I thought Troon North was pretty special until it got surrounded.

Brian,

If there is one thing this site does very badly it is hype the privates that most if not all of us have access to when the normal world doesn't.  I always prefer playing a private club with a friend from the site as opposed to playing a public alone...it really has little to do with the architecture...privates are just usually a cooler experience.   note: I can only speak to Gold Canyon and was comped...even played with the architect.

Bryan,
From an architectural perspective, you are correct, not a lot here relative to the number of courses and population.  Based on your comments and assuming that you do not have access to privates.  In the Phx Metro, I would play AS, TS.  You also may want to try the Biltmore and the Wigwan.  Both old traditional non desert courses that have recently been reworked.

In Tucson, I would try the Gallery - 36 holes by John Fought.  Also, Ken Kavenaugh has restored a number of the municipal courses in the city - Randolph Park South, El Rio and I believe Silver Bell.  Email me if you have more specific questions.  Thanks, Tom

Bryan,

I can't speak to any of the privates, but played the TPC Desert course last week. It was a very fun & enjoyable 6450 yards. I'd highly recmoneded it and for the price, it can't be beat. Wanted to get toWe Ko Pa, but didn't have enough time.

Next time though I will definetly head that way. When we we're flying out we flew right over and they we're out moving dirt (and seemed to be pretty far along on quite a few holes) on the C & C course  there.

I'm pretty sure that Gallery keeps one of there courses open for Public play. Don't know how long though.

John,

I've played the TPC, and apart from the PGA Tour cache, it wasn't that great. Looking at the Desert course across the street, it appeared to be on a hopelessly flat piece of land.  I'd prefer more elevation change.  We-ko-pa sounds like a good bet.

Steve,

I'll check out the Gallery.  Thanks for the web site.  Any discounts are good, if the courses they have are good.

Thanks for this thread.  I'm playing there in Jan and really looking forward to it.  Also kudos for your take that dormant conditions are still excellent.  Tom D wrote a great passage in The Anatomy of a golf course about how five star conditions are sometimes unplayable as too fast.  Now we just have to teach the concept to course developers and casual fans....

Gentlemen,

Believe it or not, I did know before we built the 17th at Apache Stronghold that it would play into the setting sun in winter.

We had two choices there:  build the hole as it is, or cut out the last two holes (turning the 16th into the finishing hole) and build two replacement holes somewhere out in the middle of the back nine.  But I didn't see two replacement holes which were all that great.  Would you have rather we'd done that?

It's easy to criticize a golf course for "boilerplate" design theories such as playing into the rising and setting sun, but when you are actually designing a course, you have to weigh those issues against the other options available to you on a given site.  I am sure there are designers who never screw up on the sun angle, but who also routinely fail to build inspiring holes because they are too worried about their formula.

Wish I had something new or positive to say about the conditioning issues at Apache Stronghold, but I don't.

You definetly made the right choice IMO.  17 is one of my favorite holes out there and both times I have played the course it was on a winter afternoon.  

Tom Doak,

You've got to hire this guy Matt Ward as a senior associate.  He can then stage a bloody coup if need be and take over your firm.  Of course it will be aptly named Insane Ward Designs.  

I've never been to Apache Stronghold but if Matt says the design is inexcusable, well it simply must be.  Now admit you fuqued up and that Matt Ward is a golf architecture savant.   OK maybe just an idiot savant.  OK an idiot at any rate