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Mark_Fine

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It is raining - best time to view drainage
« on: November 16, 2005, 02:57:44 PM »
I think I am going to go over to Lehigh to take some pictures while it is raining to show that it is possible to design a golf course that drains properly without having catch basins scattered all over the fairways and around greens.  What a novel concept – surface drainage.  Wayne and I talked about this yesterday and this guy named Flynn was pretty good at it  ;)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:It is raining - best time to view drainage
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2005, 03:22:56 PM »
Mark,

I recall going to LA class one rainy day, and our professor taking us out to the river so we could see a flood live.....

Somewhere, I have pix of Lehigh while flooded. I don't know why, but I do...they day I was there, it wasn't flooded so they aren't from my collection.

I am not meaning to disagree with you, and I understand no one likes inlets near greens, or in fairways.  I am in favor of as few catch basins as possible, where possible.  You are probably classifying all modern design along the lines of the designs of the 80-90's era, which were complicated and required more basins because the artifical earth forms.  Yes, many of those designs necessitated catch basins that aren't strictly necessary otherwise.

In other cases, like flat sites, its just necessary to add basins to get drainage to a level golfers now expect, especially given lower cutting heights.  

I will briefly recite why we would use more catch basins if we designed Lehigh today:

Regulations prohibit us draining right into the creek.  We have to catch it and trap it, allowing sediment and "inputs" to filter out before releasing to the stream (if thats allowed)

Regulations prohibit us from doing anything in construction that would put sediment in the creek.  On the hilly places of Lehigh, we would need to control our drainage for construction sake only, even if we didn't want it later, including slowing down the water to minimize erosion.

Members paying big bucks wouldn't want to wait a few years for optimum conditions like grandaddy was willing to do.  We would have more drainage to speed grow in, even if we didn't want it later.  

Most likely though, a long drainage swale will always be soggy.  For that matter, without trapping water every 250 feet or so, before it changes from sheet flow to channel flow, there would be several areas of the course that wouldn't grow in acceptably.

(Neither of us knows how much (or when) sub drains were put in below those wet areas, but I bet there are some, even at Lehigh)  

Along the lines above, realizing that for most older courses, drainage is added every year, perhaps our clients just asked us to get it right up front.  Given the advent of plastic pipe, which is so much easier and cheaper to install than the clay or concrete pipes of the Flynn era, and members reluctance to play over new trenches every year, it makes perfect sense.

We might also want to pick up off site drainage from the urban areas that drain across the course (if not there, then many places) to keep growing conditions constant for critical areas.

Flynn didn't deal with cart paths, which are notorious for blocking drainage on flatter areas on the site (granted not many of these at Lehigh)  We might want to catch the drainage outside the path, to avoid the sloppiness that accrues from drainage on the path.  Wet areas and carts are a bad mix!

We might also want to avoid a lawsuit for an unsafe conditon of driving on wet pavement on some of your steeper slopes.

There may be springs to correct (which of course, Flynn also had to deal with).

The accountants may have told us that the revenue loss from just one outside tournament event will pay for doing the drainage right.  Further, our members demand to get back on the course as soon as it stops raining.

You get the idea.  

You guys can postulate all you want, and wish for the old days, but on a clay site, either too flat or too hilly, drainage is a must.  Regulations, business climate and golfer expectations have all changed since Flynn worked.  However, with the firms engineering background, I am guessing they understood drainage and wouldn't hestitate to put pipes in where they felt necessary.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark_Fine

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Re:It is raining - best time to view drainage
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2005, 04:49:36 PM »
Jeff,
Just back from taking photos.  I got soaked but it was worthwhile.  It is always interesting and informative to watch how a golf course drains.  It's not bad for learning undulations in green surfaces as well  ;)

I agree with you on a number of your points and realize there are many regulations that must be followed.  However, I think you would agree there are still guys out there putting in minimal drainage.  They avoid catch basins at almost all costs.  I do think that they can become a design crutch.  There is nothing worse then having a catch basin in every chipping area where balls collect or in front of every green.  

I may take a shot at posting a few photos.  If I fail, I will send them to someone to put up.  
Mark

Dan Herrmann

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Re:It is raining - best time to view drainage
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2005, 04:54:14 PM »
Aren't catch basins sometimes required by local code?  

Mark_Fine

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Re:It is raining - best time to view drainage
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2005, 05:55:27 PM »
Dan,
They may be required but do they need to go here - right in the middle of the approach?  

« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 06:20:57 PM by Mark_Fine »

Mark_Fine

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Re:It is raining - best time to view drainage
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2005, 06:19:22 PM »
Here are some photos in the rain of Lehigh:











Even after a heavy rain like this, the course will have little if any standing water in the fairways/greens about 10-15 minutes after the rain stops and be playable.  
« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 06:24:10 PM by Mark_Fine »

James Bennett

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Re:It is raining - best time to view drainage
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2005, 06:28:33 PM »
Mark

how much rain was 'heavy rain'.  Over what period of time.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Gary_Mahanay

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Re:It is raining - best time to view drainage
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2005, 06:42:50 PM »
Mark,

Those bunkers look like they held up pretty good.  Surely they have some kind of internal drainage system, where does that water go?

Gary

Mark_Fine

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Re:It is raining - best time to view drainage
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2005, 07:28:18 PM »
Mark,
Pete Dye did say something along those lines.  Maybe I can find the exact quote.

James,
I don't know a total but it rained very heavy for an hour or two this afternoon.  The streets were like rivers in our neighborhood.  

I was once stranded on #7 at Lehigh in our halfway house with a guest watching the #7 green be completely covered with streams of water from a downpour.  The rain lasted about 20 minutes.  Less then 5 minutes after it stopped, we were playing the hole and the balls actually bounced when they hit the green.  Water affecting putting was not an issue.  #7 at Lehigh is a long downhill par three (80' drop from tee to green).

Gary,
The bunkers at Lehigh have internal drainage.  That has been added as it has by now in most older course's bunkers.  We do get some wash outs.  

Mark
« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 07:28:52 PM by Mark_Fine »

James Bennett

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Re:It is raining - best time to view drainage
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2005, 08:02:16 PM »
Mark

I have experienced similar outcomes at my club (clay soils) during a downpour.  Green completely awash because of a sizeable downpour, lasting perhaps an hour, then following 5 or 10 minutes of eleapsed time, the surface drainage is complete, the surface puttable and still firm.

Of course, if we have the same amount of rain but spread across a longer time period, the greens will soften (greater penetration of the rain into the surface, and less surface drainage.  Then the sub-surface drains are needed to shift that water.  

Drainage is a major issue for us during our wet winters.  We have tried a number of methods, from fairway herringbone to simpler, deeper single drains (returfed of course).  If we can locate the key wet areas, collect that water near that point and put it into a master drain system, we can keep a major larger area dry and firm.

Of course, if we have been able to keep the heavy-clay based fairways drier leading into the wet winter, we find we have far less wet spots to drain, except in the event of continued heavy rain (we have just had nearly 10 inches in a month, where 5 inches would normally be above average.  Most of the course was fine a few hours later following the downpours.  Some spots were a little damp, but even they recovered within three days.)

Our 'worst' weather is the slight drizzle with heavy cloud cover.  This has no surface run-off, no surface evaporation and rainfall that exceeds the  drainage ability of the soil.  In our heavy clay, we get a vertical movement of perhaps 1mm per hour, and a lateral movement of perhaps 0.1mm per hour.  So, any rain exceeding perhaps 2.4mm per day (about 10 points, or a tenth of an inch) will result in a slight raising of the water table.  If the sub-surface is wet beforehand, it will stay wet.  If the sub-surface is dry beforehand, we have a good chance it can stay dry, until significant, constant rain has fallen.

James B
« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 08:04:34 PM by James Bennett »
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Jim_Coleman

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Re:It is raining - best time to view drainage
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2005, 09:17:37 PM »
   I'd like to turn this topic a few degrees and raise a different issue.  Rolling Green (a Flynn masterpiece, in my opinion) has tried over the last 15 years to put "drainage" into it's greens - first the "Cambridge System," then "herringbones."  Each time the experiment has failed miserably (in my opinion), in addition to leaving ugly lines where the trenches were dug.  Rolling Green's greens are for the most part elevated and well-tilted back to front.  They have drained naturally for 75 years w/o "modern interference"  Yet superintendants have blamed problems with growing grass on the greens to "poor drainage." And so, we're about to do it again to two more greens which were either "Canbridged" or "herringboned" within the last decade.  It's driving me crazy.  Am I?

mike_malone

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Re:It is raining - best time to view drainage
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2005, 10:21:58 PM »
Jim,

    Now that is a wonderful contribution to the site. Good question.
AKA Mayday

Don_Mahaffey

Re:It is raining - best time to view drainage
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2005, 10:59:05 PM »
When soil can't exchange air with the atmosphere due to,
a. compaction (no air spaces)
b. saturation (all the soil pores are full of water)
c. soil structure (either heavy soils made up of very fine particles that results in very, very small pores that are easily clogged, or a widely graded soil where the pores are also very small),
then the turf will not root well because roots do not thrive in an anaerobic environment. Saying they will not thrive is a nice way of saying the plants will die if the soil is not open to the atmosphere.

When someone says the greens do not do well due to drainage it usually means the soil is often saturated. Saturated soil pores can't exchange air with the atmosphere creating an anaerobic condition resulting in weak turf that is very susceptible to stress.

The fix is simple. Find out why the greens are always wet and remedy the situation. Could mean adding drainage, or maybe changing the way you water, or amending the soil, or all of the above.  The truth in golf maintenance is all the processes that go into caring for the course are interdependent. I've seen USGA spec greens that were so saturated the grass could barely survive and I've seen some of the most awesome bent possibly on heavy soil greens. Diagnose the problem, develop a strategy, and then execute the plan.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 11:00:37 PM by Don_Mahaffey »

James Bennett

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Re:It is raining - best time to view drainage
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2005, 11:32:43 PM »
When soil can't exchange air with the atmosphere due to,
a. compaction (no air spaces)
b. saturation (all the soil pores are full of water)
c. soil structure (either heavy soils made up of very fine particles that results in very, very small pores that are easily clogged, or a widely graded soil where the pores are also very small),
then the turf will not root well because roots do not thrive in an anaerobic environment. Saying they will not thrive is a nice way of saying the plants will die if the soil is not open to the atmosphere.

When someone says the greens do not do well due to drainage it usually means the soil is often saturated. Saturated soil pores can't exchange air with the atmosphere creating an anaerobic condition resulting in weak turf that is very susceptible to stress.

The fix is simple. Find out why the greens are always wet and remedy the situation. Could mean adding drainage, or maybe changing the way you water, or amending the soil, or all of the above.  The truth in golf maintenance is all the processes that go into caring for the course are interdependent. I've seen USGA spec greens that were so saturated the grass could barely survive and I've seen some of the most awesome bent possibly on heavy soil greens. Diagnose the problem, develop a strategy, and then execute the plan.


Well said Don, and simply put.  This may not be 'Post of the Year' but it is worthy of consideration.

Just to repeat some of the last paragraph -

'The truth in golf maintenance is all the processes that go into caring for the course are INTERDEPENDENT.     ...   DIAGNOSE THE PROBLEM, DEVELOP A STRATEGY, AND THEN EXECUTE THE PLAN'.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

TEPaul

Re:It is raining - best time to view drainage
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2005, 08:44:07 AM »
Jim Coleman and Mayday;

Believe me, I'm definitely not trying to be a smart-ass by saying this and I might be all wet (sorry ;) ) saying it but before you guys get into another round of trying some new internal drainage system on Rolling Green G.C's greens why don't you take a year or two first and really try to dry those greens out through altered maintenance practices with your irrigation system? Again, I'm no agronomist and certainly not a hydrologist but it sort of stands to reason that if greens have a whole lot of artifical irrigation moisture in them BEFORE the rains come they probably aren't that likely to drain very well, or at least as well as they can, no matter what.

Now, I admit I really don't know what kind of grass you have on those greens but if you have a ton of poa in them I can certainly understand what I just suggested can be far more complicated to do. If you have a ton of poa in those greens, for a couple of other reasons (like concern about anthracnose), before doing anything at all toward drainage solutions, you just might want to consider (very carefully of course) this new "A" strain on your greens. Feedback is telling us in this region very clearly now that the "A" strain just LOVES dryness.

Also, far be it from me to say but if I were you guys with your brand new super, I'd give him a general dictate for the future that's just two basic words with a conjunction between 'em---"Firm and Fast". That's all I'd tell him like a great Eastern L.I. course told their new super about four years ago that resulted in wonderful conditions for playability (the ground game). That's all I'd tell him for your course but I'd also tell him that you don't care (or that at least you understand) if it takes 2-5 years to get there (even with some understandable somewhat negative transition symptoms in the interim) because this time the club really does intend to commit to it!

If you guys can get that golf course to generally firm and fast conditions both "through the green" (noticeable bounce and at least 30-50 yards of rollout) and on the green surfaces during those times it hasn't rained that golf course of yours is going to truly sing!

Please take my word for that playability over there at least, because I don't care how long either of you have been members there you've never consistently seen the playability I'm suggesting at Rolling Green G.C.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2005, 08:52:34 AM by TEPaul »

mike_malone

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Re:It is raining - best time to view drainage
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2005, 08:48:07 AM »
 Tom,

   I can't respond to that ; I just want to keep rereading it.


  BTW we have A-1 A-4.  


    I think Jim was getting to what you said.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2005, 08:52:11 AM by mayday_malone »
AKA Mayday

TEPaul

Re:It is raining - best time to view drainage
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2005, 08:56:56 AM »
"BTW we have A-1 A-4."

Then dry it out. Call up GMGC and talk to them about it. I'm not saying this is going to be a solution to drainage problems with your greens but it's worth looking at first before launching into another big and expensive and disruptive internal drainage project on your greens----and certainly if you're maintaining your "A" strains in anything other than the dryness it seems to thrive on.  

JESII

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Re:It is raining - best time to view drainage
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2005, 09:18:08 AM »
I have the impression Rolling Green has a higher percentage of sand in its greens than many courses in this area. Am I correct? What role would that play in explaining a failing surface drainage system? What is the process to correct that? How does a club develop a strategy for fixing a problem like this?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:It is raining - best time to view drainage
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2005, 10:23:25 AM »
We have developed two separate issues here in my mind. I felt as if Mark was talking fw and rough drainage initially, by mentioning catch basins, and I have never seen a cb in a green, but we have morphed to the greens.  

I did notice that the Lehigh greens had more water concentrated on them in the photos than some of the fw, which I thought was odd, given they are small drainage areas, and always at the top of the watershed.  I also noticed that Flynn only uses one drainage swale, at least from the photos presented, whereas two drainage swales incorporated into the design would reduce that green surface water concentration.

I agree with Mr. Mahaffey - there is a sum total of conditions to address.  irrigation alone won't do it, as TEPaul suggests, but it might help (see below) In the case of Rolling Hills, I will add that most courses that try limited solutions (adding drain tile in existing turf) usually end up biting the bullet and rebuilding the soil zone of their greens.  Starting from scratch usually (despite a few horror stories out there) is the best way to attack soil problems, which usually are signigant components to drainage.

In most cases, drying out the course with less irrigatino probably won't affect its drainage.  They are often/usually two separate issues, unless the rain on a given night just happens to equal the net turf deficit.

Field capacity is measured in inches, and varies from perhaps 1" in clays to 4 or 5 inches in sand.  Thus, if soil field capacity is 3 inches, and the water capacity if full, the course should theoretically shed/surface drain 100% of rainfall.  

If soil field capacity is 1 inch less than full capacity, then in theory, anything up to a 1" rain should soak in.  However, this is also affected by soil percolation rate.  If the soil perc rate is only 0.5" per hour, and that one inch rain falls evenly over two hours, there should be no runoff.  If it falls even briefly at higher rates, that water will run off, even if there is soil capacity available to accept it. And, sloped areas drain differently than flat ones, treed areas different than turf, etc. so there is always some runoff in most rains.

Net, Net, even the best irrigation practices wouldn't take away the need for drainag, although "it can't hurt".

The thing about water is your soil only momentarily EVER has "just the right amount" of soil moisture.  After signifigant rain or irrigation, soils may be filled to field capacity, and they immediately begin losing moisture to evapotranspiration (evt) and plant use. If it it rains too little, you need irrigation at some point, and if it rains too hard, the excess runs off, and you need drainage.  It a constant balancing act for supers.  

If not watered, they can theoretically go to about 1/3 of field capacity and have the turf survive, although I doubt most supers would let available moisture dip much below 50%.  Signs of wilt, including foot printing, let them know it is getting critical.

Modern computers are inherently set up to measure how much evt there was last night and replace that fully.  I would like to see those supers replace about 80% of evt nightly, to keep things dry, but survibable, and counting on rain filling the soil back up every ten days or so.  Obviously, he/she needs to monitor conditions, and of course, this plan doesn't work in the desert!

Some supers use less frequent irrigation, and can go 4 or more days between wilting, depending on soil and weather before filling the tank up fully, with deep infrequent irrigation, to start the cycle again.

I suspect that the most "firm and fast" committed supers let the course dry out to 50% available moisture in late spring, and then replaces evt loss every few days, rather than every day, taking the chance that the turf goes to its wilting point every so often.

Obviously, a watering scenario where there may be and inch or more soils ability to absorb water reduces runoff more often than  at a course with no more than 0.25" of  water deficit on any given night.  Its just that no one can predict rainfall amounts and intensity, so its never a perfect match, and you always have runoff.


Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Brent Hutto

Re:It is raining - best time to view drainage
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2005, 10:32:40 AM »
Jeff,

Thank you for taking the time to explain these issues clearly and succinctly. I doubt I'm the only finding your explaination very educational.

Jim_Coleman

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Re:It is raining - best time to view drainage
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2005, 08:33:23 PM »
   Jeff:
    I too thank you.  
    I know you say that, more often than not, rebuilding the soil zone eventually is the option taken.  My guess is that we won't bite that bullet.  Have you seen success with these "limited solutions" (i.e. added tile drainage)?  I must say, we've tried it many times with, as far as I can tell, no success whatsoever.  And the new drainage lines leave very ugly tracks on the greens (discoloration where the trenches were dug) over the course of the season.  Is "drill and fill" aeration another vehicle to improve subsurface drainage?  We've tried that too with no apparant success.  
   Maybe the best solution is a superintendant who really understands the problem and irrigates accordingly. From your discussion, that may not be as easily done as said.

Forrest Richardson

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Re:It is raining - best time to view drainage
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2005, 12:06:23 PM »
On the other hand, you cannot properly drain a site with just a few feet of fall without creating fall — one method being catch basins. Of course, perhaps the course at such a flat site is ill-advised!

At Olivas Links (Ventura, CA) we have about 6-ft. of fall across 1 mile. We cannot move much dirt because of high groundwater conditions. There is no soil to import. Our solution is to pond water and carry it away in pipes to the lowest outfall of the site — this, and lakes, is the only way to effectively move water.

Unless a site (unless pure sand) has 3-4% fall (minimum) it will need artificial drainage. Smooth-walled pipes can carry water at less than .5% slope which allows water to pond and be piped to lakes, streams or lows.

Mark is correct — Flynn used very natural means to drain his designs, and they have held up well. Mark is also right — a wet day is the ideal time to check out drainage...which to a golf architect, is nearly as fun as a decent match.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2005, 12:08:42 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

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