'Bottle' Hole at NGLA

« **on:** November 16, 2005, 09:04:47 AM »

I have never played it, but looking at the pictures, the fairway left of the echelon of bunkers appears much smaller than the right side.
As the left side is the preferred angle, this makes sense.
But is the hole much tougher from the right? Is it worth the risk to get to the left side? Any ideas on how many people go right vs left?
Also, this seems like a brilliant, straightforward strategy--was CBM the first to use it off the tee like this?

« **Reply #1 on:** November 16, 2005, 09:48:14 AM »

There was a very good thread on the Bottle Hole several years ago. You might check the archives.

Bob

« **Reply #2 on:** November 16, 2005, 09:53:34 AM »

Andy, MacDonald based most of those holes at NGLA on prototypes he had seen in Scotland, so it most likely was not his strategic creation. Perhaps our resident NGLA expert, George Bahto, can tell you more about the original inspiration.

« **Reply #3 on:** November 16, 2005, 11:11:25 AM »

Bob, thanks, I'll give it a search (but without holding my breath

)

Bill, George's book, as I recall, says that the echelon bunkers off the tee were actually 'borrowed' from a hole at Sunningdale, but it was the approach shot. I'll doublecheck that when I get home.

« **Reply #4 on:** November 16, 2005, 12:30:05 PM »

I think the Bottle Hole was one of Charles MacD's best ideas.

The real mystery is not where it came from. The real mystery is why the Bottle Hole didn't get trotted out by MacD and Raynor more often. I think it is at least as good a design as many of the template holes that they used time and again.

Bob

« **Reply #5 on:** November 16, 2005, 01:19:23 PM »

One of the great blessings I have had in my life was a look at NGLA with Uncle George. Nothing like going around that place with someone who knows, and I was surprised during my visits there that the Principle's Nose on #8 had been scalped somewhat substanially.

Still, the Bottle Hole is one of my favorites, but that wouldn't be by much since all 18 holes are about as perfect as golf holes can get, even with the minor restoration work needed on a few holes under the more then capable hands of Bill Salinetti.

Gotta go!

« **Reply #6 on:** November 16, 2005, 01:34:33 PM »

Quote from: BCrosby on November 16, 2005, 12:30:05 PM

I think the Bottle Hole was one of Charles MacD's best ideas.

Bob, was it really MacDonald's idea, or was it the idea of the architect of Sunningdale Old? MacDonald apparently did a great job of replicating the hole in the context of NGLA, but it wasn't an original idea.

We probably need to get up to NGLA next summer for some field research!

« **Reply #7 on:** November 16, 2005, 01:54:06 PM »

Macdonald recognized the value of the second shot at Sunningdale (Old) #3 (sometimes was #12 when reversed) - he thought it would work better (or at least for his Ideal Golf Course - 1910) for the tee-ball.

I'm doing a comprehensive article - with examples - for the next issue of Neil Crafters Architecture Mag - how great is that mag!! This will be the 3rd in a series (I hope he'll want me to do more).

One day last year I was driving around the course with the esteemed Mr. Salinetti and I said - "whoa, the top of that PN has been shaved off" . . . (sometime long ago) - it shows clearly in Tommy posted picture. Hopefully we can perk it up again one day .... just another of Bill S's many, ongoing projects!!

Examples of Bottle holes built by those three guys are hard to find and usually only can be identified on old aerials - too many have been changed. I'll dig up what I can find for the article.

Me thinks Neil magazine should be a hardbound, it's so good.

I often ask people what their favorite hole is at National - the usual answer is there are too many to mention but when pinned down (excluding Redan - a class by itself) the 8th is most often mentioned ..... along with 17, of course.

On that old thread we spoke about the change in the original line of play as well as discussing the pros and cons of playing the left or right fairway.

........ perhaps someone can bring it back up.

The Bottle hole at NGLA -esp when the sun is low - is one of the most dramatic photos you can take.

« **Reply #8 on:** November 16, 2005, 01:58:56 PM »

Bill - We definitley need to go. I happen to be free that weekend.

As I noted above, the real mystery for me is that the Bottle Hole didn't get re-used more often by MacD and Raynor. Why in the world they kept it under wraps is beyond me.

Which is all the more reason to make the pilgrimage to Mecca.

Bob

« **Reply #9 on:** November 16, 2005, 02:19:05 PM »

Thanks Tommy, I now have a new desktop photo.

Not only is the tee shot exhillirating and demanding, but the second shot requires all the courage and patience you can muster, to one of the most marvelous greensites I have ever seen.

Then...you actually get to putt on it.

« **Reply #10 on:** November 16, 2005, 02:26:26 PM »

Pete - a few years ago the left front of the green was shaved down like the rest of the green. Balls roll down off that left front area but it was even worse then.

« **Reply #11 on:** November 16, 2005, 02:40:16 PM »

George -

Doesn't the "Bottle" bunker extend out of the left of the frame of the photo?

Adding (restoring?) some of the peak to the bunker wall is a terrific idea.

Bob

« **Reply #12 on:** November 16, 2005, 03:48:17 PM »

George is indeed writing on the Bottle Hole in our series "Timeless Strategic Holes of the World" in our Golf Architecture magazine issue 9, due out next April. George has already written on the Biarritz and the Cape in past issues and George - the job of writing on these holes is yours as long as you want it! Don't think we'll run out of material any time soon!

Anyone who hasn't seen our magazine can order the current issue and back issues by going to the SAGCA website at www.sagca.org.au

cheers Neil

« **Reply #13 on:** November 16, 2005, 07:20:19 PM »

In my opinion, the Bottle hole at NGLA is an incredibly cool and unsusual looking hole for a whole variety of reasons. The shot to the green if you're out there with about a 5 iron or more is really challenging, in my opinion, no matter which side of the fairway you're on.

I've analyzed that hole every which way to Sunday--probably spend a good couple of hours over the years on it just walking all over it looking at everything, measuring things like the total fairway width of the fairway across the basic LZ (65+ yards), the width of the last bunker in the line (13 yards) as well as the widths of the bunkers in the line leading up to the last bunker in the line (about 5 yards each) etc.

But to be honest I really don't think it makes a whole hell of a lot of difference which side of that fairway you're on---unless you're a pretty long driver. Long drivers pretty much tend to go down the left side maybe over the left corner of that last bunker in the line and maybe to the left of it.

I think there's a simple reason for that strategy (if your long) and that is you're higher up for your approach on the left once you get left and abreast or past that last bunker in the line. But if you're not that long frankly I think it's better to just play down the right side because if you're over on the left pretty far back you have little of that height advantage and frankly I'd prefer to come at that green from the right vs the left if I'm farther back.

The reason for that to me is frankly the angle is better if you're on the right and if you're father back. From the right you feel like you can tend to stray a bit left compared to coming at that green from pretty far back on the left side and if you miss left coming at it from the right side your ball is likely to carom off the left bank onto the green better. Trying that from the left fairway doesn't work nearly as well.

And I'd much rather deal with that big bank on the right of the green coming at it from the right rather than the left.

Sure, I hear all this stuff about what the strategy is supposed to be on that hole but a lot of it I don't buy and I've played the hole and course by this time certainly enough to get a good feel for it for me.

The hole is called the "Bottle" hole but it really was known as the "Bottle Neck" hole. And if that left side to the left of the last bunker in the line is supposed to be the "neck" I don't really get that either. There's a whole lot more room over there and way down there on the left than most seem to think or tell you.

To me the drive on the "Bottle" hole doesn't really have a preferred side, unless you're pretty long that is. If you're not that long then right or left is sort of like a totally "balanced option" golfer's choice, in my opinion. Strategically I don't think it matters much. For some players who really know the hole well the line they take off the tee is probably more in their heads or just something they tend to get used to and comfortable with.

But the real beauty of that Bottle hole from the tee is it's one of those fairly rare hole in golf that's just an "in your face" choice. You got to make a decision on the tee which is a whole lot different and more interesting than 98% of the golf holes in America where there is no real decision on the tee---just try ONCE AGAIN to hit it down the middle.

Actually, one of the neatest things about NGLA is it has a pretty good number of holes where you can't exactly figure out what the middle is or even where it is or even if it matters.

« **Reply #14 on:** November 16, 2005, 08:07:03 PM »

Quote from: TEPaul on November 16, 2005, 07:20:19 PM

But to be honest I really don't think it makes a whole hell of a lot of difference which side of that fairway you're on
Just when I thought you were making progress under my tutelage, you revert back to your Ray Charles School of Architecture thinking.

Of course it matters what side you're on, you dolt.

The left side, the riskier side to get to, is the prefered side.
The left side fairway is elevated above the right side fairway, and, the left side fairway has far less cant to it, making it much easier to hit off of.[/color]

---unless you're a pretty long driver. Long drivers pretty much tend to go down the left side maybe over the left corner of that last bunker in the line and maybe to the left of it.

I think there's a simple reason for that strategy (if your long) and that is you're higher up for your approach on the left once you get left and abreast or past that last bunker in the line. But if you're not that long frankly I think it's better to just play down the right side because if you're over on the left pretty far back you have little of that height advantage and frankly I'd prefer to come at that green from the right vs the left if I'm farther back.

The reason for that to me is frankly the angle is better if you're on the right and if you're father back. From the right you feel like you can tend to stray a bit left compared to coming at that green from pretty far back on the left side and if you miss left coming at it from the right side your ball is likely to carom off the left bank onto the green better. Trying that from the left fairway doesn't work nearly as well.

And I'd much rather deal with that big bank on the right of the green coming at it from the right rather than the left.

Sure, I hear all this stuff about what the strategy is supposed to be on that hole but a lot of it I don't buy and I've played the hole and course by this time certainly enough to get a good feel for it for me.

Let me see if I understand your logic. If you're not long enough to carry the bunkers, don't ..... hit short and right ?
Who imparted those mystifying words of wisdom ?[/color]

The hole is called the "Bottle" hole but it really was known as the "Bottle Neck" hole. And if that left side to the left of the last bunker in the line is supposed to be the "neck" I don't really get that either. There's a whole lot more room over there and way down there on the left than most seem to think or tell you.

There's a string of semi-pot bunkers that run along the left rough in the area of the neck, so I wouldn't describe that area as wide open.

Were you walking the golf course after midnight ?[/color]

To me the drive on the "Bottle" hole doesn't really have a preferred side, unless you're pretty long that is. If you're not that long then right or left is sort of like a totally "balanced option" golfer's choice, in my opinion. Strategically I don't think it matters much. For some players who really know the hole well the line they take off the tee is probably more in their heads or just something they tend to get used to and comfortable with.

Do you mean that they repeat their strategy because they've been successful with it ? Now that's a novel thought.

Given the option, and having a reasonable certainty of pulling it off, I'd say the prefered play would be:

A Long and straight
B Left of the center bunkers
C Right of the center bunkers

I think a lot of the strategy depends upon your assessment of your game, to date, as you stand on the 8th tee.[/color]

But the real beauty of that Bottle hole from the tee is it's one of those fairly rare hole in golf that's just an "in your face" choice. You got to make a decision on the tee which is a whole lot different and more interesting than 98% of the golf holes in America where there is no real decision on the tee---just try ONCE AGAIN to hit it down the middle.
BT (before technology) the dilema on the tee was terrific.
Doubt and indecision entered the golfers mind upon seeing the obstacles confronting them.[/color]

Actually, one of the neatest things about NGLA is it has a pretty good number of holes where you can't exactly figure out what the middle is or even where it is or even if it matters.

That's why I'd like to try playing # 12 from the left side of the
11th green. I think that would be another one of those holes where you're uncertain with respect to where to aim your tee shot.[/color]

« **Reply #15 on:** November 16, 2005, 08:09:27 PM »

Pete,
Coming from you, (the former professional photographer) that is a high compliment, and I thank you for that!

Here's one I posted earlier in the year. Shooting a wide angle with a Canon A70 obviously has its difficulties as witnessed here, but the image shows how the build-up of the berm in front of the road affected a lot of the what a person saw off of the tee. For those of you that don't know, a line of bunkers bisects the fairway into two different angles to the green, the longer tee shot left will get you to a realitively good shot at the green, while the right side will require you to carry the massive bunker fronting the green. Both shots are intimidating, but thrilling.

« **Reply #16 on:** November 16, 2005, 08:13:04 PM »

Patrick, I would whole heartedly agree with your assessment of the hole and the description of TEPaul above. Obviously the 20,000 mark has left him scratching at the walls for more conversation!

« **Reply #17 on:** November 16, 2005, 08:16:23 PM »

Tommy,

Thanks for the photos.

As you know, this is one of my all time favorite par 4's in all of golf.

Given the opportunity, I could play # 6, # 8 and # 18 from sun up to sun down and never become bored or unchallenged.

If I recall correctly, while I was cold, shivering and in pain,
I walked the golf course with George Bahto, only to be joined by TEPaul when he'd occassionally venture from the warmth of his car, a vintage station wagon, with windows perpetually fogged by cigarette smoke and an interior temperature of 127 degrees.

« **Reply #18 on:** November 16, 2005, 08:20:14 PM »

Tommy,

It's amazing how much more stunningly the view from the tee is now that the trees between # 8 and # 11 are gone.

The same thing applies to the view from # 11 tee and from
# 10 fairway.

It's an incredibly special golf course.

« **Reply #19 on:** November 16, 2005, 09:23:19 PM »

Pat,
If it was me, and now, this is just me, and it was a freezing ice storm, but the architecture of National was right there for the taking, well, I can honestly say that the cold wouldn't matter and I would have been out there looking at every feature I've missed in previous visits--but that's me, and I take my architecture seriously. Seems as if TE doesn't if he did nothing but stayed in warmth of the car.

In fact, it disappoints me deeply. I thought he was really into this stuff......

As requested, 11 from the tee and beyond:

« **Reply #20 on:** November 16, 2005, 09:32:12 PM »

This is bad - if I write too much, Neil doesn’t have an article. He’d have a re-hash.

..... but here’s a couple of thoughts:

To have this hole play as CBM intended, you wouldn’t be able to drive beyond all the “in-fairway bunkering.” The tee-box would have to be moved back another 20-30 + yards which would be stupid.

You could play musical bunkers and move all the bunkers forward keeping them all in the all proportionately located to one another. NOT!

you could play the hole teeing off with a 3-iron or so.

So, in essence, the technology has negated the strategies of the hole for the long player .... but for us “humans” it still works.

Originally the PN bunker was not part of the fairway bunkering. When golfers began driving beyond the fairway bunkers he added the PN beyond them. This helped (for a while).

There are a number of things that could be done if this wasn’t National but I’m not going down that road.

Concerning the flattening of the top on the Principals Nose bunker and other changes to the course, post Macdonald:

With the “Dictator” still around nothing was going to be done to the course unless it was his idea (great, in this case) but once he became ill in the middle ‘30's and after that, some of the members took over and got rid of some of the features that “bothered” them - the top of the PN was apparently one of them for I guess it was blocking the view to the green too much for them so apparently they shaved it!!

gb

« **Reply #21 on:** November 16, 2005, 09:42:39 PM »

I didn't take the time to get rid of the stitch marks, but this one give a wider, more true view.

« **Reply #22 on:** November 16, 2005, 09:46:27 PM »

here is a pretty good representation of the fairway bunker (for those who have not been there) of there

the next 2 photos were taken by Bill Salinetti before and after tree recent tree removal:

« **Reply #23 on:** November 16, 2005, 09:56:59 PM »

sorry for the last 2 pics - lo rez - i copied them from Bill's power point stuff I have

« **Reply #24 on:** November 16, 2005, 11:08:48 PM »

Pat Mucci:

I agree that the "left" fairway is more flat and slightly elevated than to the right of the bunkers.

But I prefer to come at the green straight on from the right than slightly across the green from the left. Even if it's a club longer.

Perhaps that is because I can't really draw the ball very well and my natural ball flight brings the right woods more into play on the approach from the left side.

There's no good place to miss that green anyway (except perhaps long) but the right is the worst of a bad situation, I've (unfortunately) discovered.

For the good ball striker, you're probably right. For the guy who tends to hits squirters off firm turf, I like the right side off the tee.

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