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Brent Hutto

Cutting Down Trees vs. Planting Trees
« on: November 07, 2005, 01:15:39 PM »
Some folks who've played golf with me may have noticed that I am, by GCA Forum standards, a tree-lover. Generally when someone points out some amazing vista that would be visible if not for decades of overzealous tree planting I just shrug and say "I see your point but I kind of enjoy the trees myself". I just find tree-lined courses to be very inviting and some totally treeless ones quites barren.

That said, the club I'm likely to join soon has planted about 200 pine trees this year and have plans to add another 200 over the winter. Many of them replace pines destroyed by lightning, bettles or ice storms over the past 40 years and the others are to provide buffers between holes for safety reasons.

I played there yesterday and a couple of times I was aware of the presence of dozens of saplings in areas that have always been open when I've visited there before. I was most surprised to realize that I regretted seeing those trees planted in those places. One of the most interesting greens on the course has a slight fall-away over the green and then short rough all the way to the back tees of the next hole (perhaps 30 yards over the green). There is now a row of about fifteen shoulder-high pine saplings separating those holes. Short and left of the same green is a beautifully contoured area of longer rough that will grab any approach shot missing the green to the left, always leaving a longish pitch shot from an uneven lie in heavy rough over a bunker to a shallow green. There's now a dozen trees haphazardly spread around that area which will eventually turn that shot into a punch out of the trees.

This time of year the shadows are long even in early afternoon and I found myself noticed that some of the new trees less than ten feet tall have afternoon shadows reaching within a few yards of the greens. Extrapolate those into mature 60-70 foot pines and suddenly these amazing-quality greens (the best feature of this course IMO) will be shaded for several hours per day. That can't be good for their health.

So is hanging out with you guys eventually going to turn me into a Cut 'Em All Down!!! tree-hating absolutist? Am I going to join this club and then in ten years be threatening to sneak out at midnight with a chainsaw? Oh well, at least they use pine trees and not some low-growing, long-limbed monsters that eventually cover 1/4 acre apiece and result in lost balls.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cutting Down Trees vs. Planting Trees
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2005, 01:29:40 PM »
Am I going to join this club and then in ten years be threatening to sneak out at midnight with a chainsaw?

Yes.

----------

I very much like trees that create more-interesting shots.

I very much dislike trees that create punch-outs.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2005, 01:31:18 PM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cutting Down Trees vs. Planting Trees
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2005, 01:42:04 PM »
Planting trees to block vistas is one thing.  

Planting trees which will quickly block sun and air to a green in Columbia or Camden South Carolina is quite another.

They should plan on extending electrical power for fans.

Pines that are only 10 feet tall, blocking the sun from the green already, might make for attractive Christmas trees in the clubhouse, or could be transplanted if you are a real tree lover.

However, when the white pine meets the wonderfully contoured, fun to putt green on any field on Saturday,  I know who should win.

Leonard's Loser - the white pine.

Brent Hutto

Re:Cutting Down Trees vs. Planting Trees
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2005, 01:55:49 PM »
John,

This is at Columbia CC. I'm not clear on how the transition occurred between replacing trees lost to attrition over the decades and planting trees in places that have probably been open since the course was built in 1960. I guess tree-planting is the sort of thing that sort of becomes its own justification and takes on a life of its own.

Now I didn't mean to imply the shadows have reached the green yet. But the saplings are 25-40 yards from the green and at 3:30PM the shadows were halfway there with the trees less than 10 feet tall. The way pines grow around here I figure in ten years the trees will be twice as tall and one side of that green will have shade for several hours a day. To me it just looked like fingers of death reaching slowly for the grass on the greens.

Andy Troeger

Re:Cutting Down Trees vs. Planting Trees
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2005, 02:03:13 PM »
Brent,
  Sounds like a case where a few trees might have been good, but a lot of trees might cause some undesired results. I think you're still allowed in the tree-lover crowd here though :)

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cutting Down Trees vs. Planting Trees
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2005, 02:39:00 PM »
What about random trees being planted to eventually block clear access to a green.  At my course, on two holes, they have planted trees in two places where you can get away with a fairly big (and common) miss.  One is a dogleg left, one a dogleg right, and misses on the way inside of the dogleg were actually easier shots (and better angles) than fairway or just off it.  We have planted small trees in both places that will (once the trees grow) will hinder green access.  I also don't know if the architect (Fazio) was consulted or not?

Brent Hutto

Re:Cutting Down Trees vs. Planting Trees
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2005, 02:42:40 PM »
Sean,

I'd think the addition of trees as you describe has about one chance in fifty of improving the play of the hole once mature. More often than not it's bound to be an anti-strategic annoyance unless there's a pretty clear plan in place for what the tree is supposed to accomplish (and punishing a pulled approach shot for instance is not a clear plan).

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cutting Down Trees vs. Planting Trees
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2005, 02:46:13 PM »
Brent,

I think that it will affect strategy because on both holes, the clear miss is /was to one side rather than the other.  Once the trees grow, it will affect the strategy of the hole.  Mind you, these are pretty big misses that you can get away with..

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cutting Down Trees vs. Planting Trees
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2005, 11:34:54 PM »
Brett,

I have become more anti-tree the longer I'm here, so it'll probably happen to you, too!

I was happy to see something positive with the trees on my home course when playing on Tuesday.  I've been unhappy for years that keep planting new trees all over the course every spring.  They have a little tree farm between #5 and #6 that produces 100-200 saplings, which they plant in every open space they can find (by 2008 they'll have to start planting them on the fairways because there won't be any open space left!)  But Tuesday they had a bunch of guys out with chainsaws working over some of the evergreens and pines to take off the lower limbs, and some areas of the course where stands of prairie grass between holes had become overgrown with brush and saplings for the past 5-10 years had been totally cleared out (still probably a lost ball if you hit there, but at least it looks much nicer)

On the other hand, I noticed they were expanding the left fairway bunker on #1.  I had heard that a few of the longer hitting college guys were making the 310 yard carry over it into the left rough between 1 and 10 (now they'll need 330 yards, that ought to hold them a few more years)  Actually not a bad angle, and probably not a bad strategy except in late May when the rough is so thick you might have trouble finding your ball.  I made a prediction to my dad that in addition to that bunker expansion, they'd probably plant at least a dozen trees over there because it is the largest open space left on the course.  If they do, the recovery options for a hook on that hole become even more limited....
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Sean Remington (SBR)

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cutting Down Trees vs. Planting Trees
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2005, 07:32:56 AM »
Golf courses are turfgrass farms not tree farms.

If you need a hazard to add strategy or penalize a bad shot, build one. Don't plant a tree.

When trees and turfgrass compete for sun, air and water trees generally win and turf for golf will suffer. Avoid creating this competition if you can.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cutting Down Trees vs. Planting Trees
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2005, 08:16:19 AM »
Sean,
Courses such as yours have to (at least should) remember who their architect is and what his thoughts/philosophies were regarding trees.  

Here are a few thoughts from Green Valley's designer on trees:

"The old idea was to have golf courses as free from trees as possible.  This notion, no doubt, was imported from Scotland because when golf was first taken up in the United States we knew very little about the game and modeled our courses on those of the Scotch which were, for the most part, built along the seashore where there were no trees.”

"It is impossible to conceive that the "Canny Scots" would have denuded their courses of trees if there had been any there originally.  As a race they are entirely too thrifty for any such waste as that.”

"Today the old ideas have been discarded and the prevailing belief is that trees, most emphatically, have a fixed place on a golf course."

Just something to keep in mind.  Not all the golden age architects had the same opinions on trees.  That said, most knew when to keep them and where to plant them (or where not to plant them).  This is critical in restoration/renovation work of older courses.  
Mark  


« Last Edit: November 10, 2005, 08:52:55 AM by Mark_Fine »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cutting Down Trees vs. Planting Trees
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2005, 08:58:25 AM »
 Mark,

   Can you show me where Flynn advocated PLANTING trees in lines of play?
AKA Mayday

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cutting Down Trees vs. Planting Trees
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2005, 09:13:11 AM »
Here is what Flynn said about trees:

'The pleasantest type of course is one where the holes are segregated, that is where the hole you happen to be playing is well apart from the others. In order to have this kind of course it is necessary to secure property that is already wooded or to do considerable planting of trees.' (Italics are Linc’s.)

' The old idea was to have golf courses as free from trees as possible. This notion, no doubt, was imported from Scotland because when golf was first taken up in the United States we knew very little about the game and modeled our courses on those of the Scots which were, for the most part, built along the seashore where there were no trees.

'It is impossible to conceive that the 'Canny Scots' would have denuded their courses of trees if there had been any there originally. As a race they are entirely too thrifty for any such waste as that.

'Today the old ideas have been discarded and the prevailing belief is that trees, most emphatically, have a fixed place on a golf course. This is true for many reasons:

First—Because there are few, if any, sites available that are devoid of trees and it is a costly operation to cut them down and remove them.
Second—Trees add beauty to a course forming picturesque backgrounds and delightful vistas.
Third—Their shade is most refreshing on a hot summer day.
Fourth—They are of great practical value in segregating various holes.'
'It might also be that moving a tee slightly to the right or left precludes the necessity of taking out some beautiful tree. This also applies to green sites. Sometimes a slight change in the alignment of the hole permits the architect to keep a specimen tree or trees which may also act as a key turning point in the hole.'

Source: Flynn articles in USGA Green Section Record, 1927.



 I think the fuller version of this article says more about the PLACEMENT of those trees. This  is taken from the Linc Roden Feature Interview.

    I think my home course, Rolling Green , is an interesting case in point.

      There were trees that Flynn designed around . Most seemed to be for turning points.

      There  were trees added well out of play in the 30's which seem to meet the above standards.

     After 35-40 years the evergreens arrived to fill in open spaces , deal with safety issues, and close off angles of play to "make the hole harder".

  To say "trees belong on golf courses" needs to be fleshed out. "Where" is the question.
AKA Mayday

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cutting Down Trees vs. Planting Trees
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2005, 09:19:34 AM »
   The problem with "separating holes" with tress is maintaining enough space between the holes so that trees don't ruin the playability that was designed for the hole. . It seems interesting to me that this constraint was lost in the 70's.
AKA Mayday

Brent Hutto

Re:Cutting Down Trees vs. Planting Trees
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2005, 09:19:53 AM »
My own take on trees is precisely that of Flynn. In most cases, a line of trees (assuming they're well back from the line play) separating one hole from another for "safety" also serves to produce the effect of what he calls "the pleasantest type of course".

At my new club, the regrettable tendency to start crowding greens and taking away recovery options seems to have crept into the ongoing program of replacing Flynn-approved pines lost to disease or accident. Eventually they'll mature and I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the cut down after only 10-20 years due to their effect on turf quality of  fairways and greens

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Cutting Down Trees vs. Planting Trees
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2005, 09:32:53 AM »

Here is what Flynn said about trees:

'The pleasantest type of course is one where the holes are segregated, that is where the hole you happen to be playing is well apart from the others. In order to have this kind of course it is necessary to secure property that is already wooded or to do considerable planting of trees.' (Italics are Linc’s.)

' The old idea was to have golf courses as free from trees as possible. This notion, no doubt, was imported from Scotland because when golf was first taken up in the United States we knew very little about the game and modeled our courses on those of the Scots which were, for the most part, built along the seashore where there were no trees.

'It is impossible to conceive that the 'Canny Scots' would have denuded their courses of trees if there had been any there originally. As a race they are entirely too thrifty for any such waste as that.

'Today the old ideas have been discarded and the prevailing belief is that trees, most emphatically, have a fixed place on a golf course. This is true for many reasons:

First—Because there are few, if any, sites available that are devoid of trees and it is a costly operation to cut them down and remove them.
 
Second—Trees add beauty to a course forming picturesque backgrounds and delightful vistas.
 
Third—Their shade is most refreshing on a hot summer day.
 
Fourth—They are of great practical value in segregating various holes.'

'It might also be that moving a tee slightly to the right or left precludes the necessity of taking out some beautiful tree. This also applies to green sites. Sometimes a slight change in the alignment of the hole permits the architect to keep a specimen tree or trees which may also act as a key turning point in the hole.'

Source: Flynn articles in USGA Green Section Record, 1927.



Mayday Malone, TEPaul & Wayne Morrison,[size=x2]

So, is Flynn the father of clausterphobic corridor golf in America ?
[/color][/size]

wsmorrison

Re:Cutting Down Trees vs. Planting Trees
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2005, 09:34:56 AM »
"Mark,

Can you show me where Flynn advocated PLANTING trees in lines of play?"

What do you mean by "in lines of play?"  If you mean where he planted strategic trees that helped to dictate strategy or require a certain shot demand?  Not to speak for Mark, but I'd like to answer the question:  Yes, absolutely there are examples of this.  

Flynn didn't write in absolutes nor did he cover every bit of his work in his writings.  There are identifiable examples of his using existing trees for strategic purposes at Rolling Green and more so at Huntingdon Valley, Pocantico Hills, The Country Club-Pepper Pike,Cascades and elsewhere.  

Then there is Boca Raton, Indian Creek, Cherry Hills and other sites where he indicated strategic PLANTINGS.  These plantings were used for strategic reasons, beauty, segregation and the enhanced perception of angles and movement on the course.

Of course he was an expert on plants and agronomy and knew exactly where and how to use the right sorts of trees and plantings.

I would recommend guarding against concentrating on Flynn's writings without considering more carefully his work on the ground.  On site studies, aerial and ground photographs (early and modern) and the drawings lead to a far better understanding of Flynn and trees.  It was not always simplistic and never dogmatic.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2005, 09:35:58 AM by Wayne Morrison »

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cutting Down Trees vs. Planting Trees
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2005, 09:44:32 AM »
probably becuase I grew up playing parkland golf courses, I am not the tree-hater that many are here..of course if they are causing sunlight /air circulation they should probably go, but as to causing punch-out situations sometimes, why would that be always bad?  they are just penalizing a bad shot just like a bunker or water hazrad does?

things brings to mind T Doak's thoughts in his discussion of Oakmont (yes, I get the irony since they took out all their trees!) in his Confidential:  his point was why do some consider brutal rough on the short side "unfair", while a water hazard in the same spot wouldn't be?  same thing here:  why is a "penal" tree bad, while a "penal" bunker is not?

I don't buy it that just because our first courses, links courses, had no trees means that all courses shouldn't have them either
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

wsmorrison

Re:Cutting Down Trees vs. Planting Trees
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2005, 09:51:44 AM »
Pat,

I think you know better than that.  Flynn was an original thinker and shared concepts with Crump and others.  At Rolling Green for instance, since Mike knows this course so well, the treelines were 40 yards off center.  These were usually a minimum of 80-yard wide corridors, often more.  Flynn's fairways were pretty systematic although he varied them a bit with topography and specific hole elements (not as much as Tom Paul would like, I feel).  Generally Flynn's fairways were 50-60 yards wide--hardly claustrophobic corridors of play.

Flynn was an American designer and did not cling to tradition when he felt some of his modern ideas were moving golf forward.  One example is shot testing in design and designing for championship play.  He did some designs for the masses but had a higher percentage than most of stern tests.  His use of multiple tees for different classes of players, strategic use of trees, perceptual miscues, naturalism, aerial and ground game demands or options and other theories and practices all result in a wide-range of styles and tests.

Consider Flynn's tree plan for Shinnecock Hills.  He planned to use tree heights to create a perception of land movement when there wasn't any.  On the flattish sections he advocated using low trees on low profile areas and tall trees on higher profile features to enhance the look and perception of movement.  That is an extraordinary plan of great vision and not narrow thought.  I would counter the argument that he is easy to compartmentalize.

The father of narrow corridors of play were green committees that were not sophisticated enough to turn down the offer of free and cheap trees offered by the Federal Government.  The proliferation of narrow corridors, exacerbated by the dependence on irrigation systems was after Flynn's death.  Of course the set-up practices of the USGA over the last few decades have perpetuated a bad scene.  

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cutting Down Trees vs. Planting Trees
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2005, 09:55:09 AM »
Mayday,
Flynn probably loved trees more than any other golden age architect.  Mackenzie was not too far behind.  

What I am trying to say is that you need to understand the course architect's philosophies on things like trees when doing any kind of restoration/renovation work.  Many architects called for plantings and/or retention of trees in their original designs.  Colt was the first to develop long range tree planting programs.  This was his attempt to have some control over how his golf courses would mature.  At the very least, he wanted future stewards of the course to know what he was thinking.  Many other architects followed suit from there.  

A lot of study is required to understand how and why a golf course has evolved but it helps to understand what the architect was thinking in the first place.  
Mark

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cutting Down Trees vs. Planting Trees
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2005, 09:57:07 AM »
 Pat,

   This is always the problem with advocating ANY trees on courses. Green cmtes. will often not take into account the advice of the architect and go wild.


  Brent,

    Trees can also just provide beauty and visual clues

   
AKA Mayday

wsmorrison

Re:Cutting Down Trees vs. Planting Trees
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2005, 09:57:52 AM »
I am not alone in thinking this site is rather narrow-minded when it comes to trees and other design features deemed inappropriate.  Anything can be misused and trees certainly have been on golf courses.  But why the absolutes?  There needs to be a recognition that some architects used them to great effect.  The disconnect from the Old World architects was an American phenomenon that we see over and over in other areas of endeavor.

I am pleased that Paul and others are not following the Pied Piper of anti-trees.  It takes discriminating open minds to see the value of trees in American golf.  Tom Doak and Jack Nicklaus have a few well-placed trees on their course in Southampton.  I think their implications on play are intriguing.

I've only played a few Heathland courses but trees certainly come into play, particularly on doglegs.  If there are beautiful trees on a site, why not use them?  If trees can be planted to add beauty and strategy to a site, why not do so?  I don't get it why there are some minds far narrower than the corridors on golf courses.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cutting Down Trees vs. Planting Trees
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2005, 09:59:13 AM »
Brent,
  Why pines? Is that all that grows in the area? Don't they grow low to the ground and eliminate creative escapes?
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Cutting Down Trees vs. Planting Trees
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2005, 10:05:08 AM »
Wayne,

I was intrigued by Flynn's advocacy of seperation, something Crump favored as well.

The concept of seperation has led to clausterphobic corridor golf in America.

Hurricane Wilma recently exposed the folly of that concept in south Florida

While you indicate that Flynn favored tree lines 40 yards removed from the fairway centerline, many courses didn't and don't have the luxury of sufficient space that would allow for that kind of offset.

When clubs couple the cost, and thus the constriction of  irrigation systems, with the desire for seperation, the unfortunate conclusion is clausterphobic corridor golf.

Fortunately, tree management programs are gaining popularity, however, in many cases, the tree lines remain.
There's just less of them.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cutting Down Trees vs. Planting Trees
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2005, 10:10:47 AM »
Ed,
You'd find Tillinghast's views on pines disturbing but I don't have time to go into that.  Maybe someone else here will.  

One thing I will say about Flynn, as much as I love him as a designer, I think a weakness of his was that he never visited the great courses of the British Isles.  Yes he read books and talked extensively with Wilson, etc. but there is no substitute (as Wayne points out above) to field study.  Not having seen any of those great links courses definitely had to have some influence on Flynn's design philosophies.  

Not to sound like Matt Ward  ;D , but I've been fortunate to have played and studied over 200 courses in the British Isles and there is no substitute to seeing these courses in person.  To me, it is so much fun to take a few buddies over there for the first time (especially those who think they know something about golf) and watch them experience a true links course.  They're perspective about golf course design, etc is forever changed.  I know mine has been.
Mark