Bandon Trails

« **on:** November 05, 2005, 09:31:20 PM »

Posted on another site, and the author gave me permission to post it here. As someone who hasn't played Trails, I have no background to comment on these thoughts:

Quote

Bandon Trails which is the newest course you only see the ocean a couple of times, but no holes run along the Pacific. It is much more American in style with lots of tree lined holes, but still the same short grass to contend with. For those of you from Texas and the heartland states, playing there I think will be easier. The grass everywhere is so short and beneath is hard packed sand. Picking the ball is a premium, and so many times I got caught taking a massive divot and getting screwed. Your club will dig and the ball goes off line. The greens on Pacific and Bandon Dunes are huge. Only big breaks in parts…you really can leave yourself some big breakers if you are on the wrong side. The greens on Bandon Trails however are just brutal. Trails is Ben Crenshaw’s course and it is so punitive it is ridiculous.

The greens can only be described as tricked up and there are so many big breaks it’s sick. On one hole, I think it is 10 or 11, there is a hump in the middle of the green. Not like a tier, I mean just a five foot around hump in the middle a foot and a half high for no good god damn reason, other than to be ridiculous.

And then there is #5. From the tips is measures 133 yards but the green is unreal. From the lowest to the highest point I would say it is 30 feet, and the green has FIVE, read it, FIVE tiers. When we played the pin was on the very front, two of our guys hit on the very back. One of them three putted, the other FIVE putted. I managed to plug the ball in the face of the front right bunker on my way to a six.

There is one hole on Trails, #14. An amazingly beautiful hole from the tee. At that point you are at the highest point on the course, and so when you hit the tee after a 1/16 mile hike up a hill, and you can see the ocean and the last few holes of Trails. If you are right as I was on this hole you are dead. I had to flip a lob wedge over the bunker and stop the ball on about eight feet of green. I didn’t and it goes over into a swale. Putted it back up, and then missed the next one for a five.

I shot 80 on Bandon Dunes, 82 on Pacific Dunes, and 84 on Bandon Trails. I am a 1.3 index. Quite simply some of the toughest golf I have played in a long time. But as I said to my playing partners who were also getting their butts kicked, if you got mad about it, that is all you would remember of the trip. You just had to stop once in a while and look around.

Trails is one of the most unreasonbly punishing golf courses I have ever played.

You could always make the argument that big tourney's may be held there one day or whatever, but it just won't happen there.

There is no room for a gallery, and it is in the middle of frickin' nowhere. So for Crenshaw to design a golf course that is almost unplayable for 85 percent of golfers that will ever play it is just silly. And we played the blue tee equivalent (the green tees), they only measure 6300 yards.

« **Reply #1 on:** November 05, 2005, 10:05:16 PM »

Wow. I am bit surprised about the tricked up green comments. I thought Trails had the most tame greens of any of the Coore and Crenshaw courses I had played. I will agree that the fifth hole is extreme but that greensite was exactly as Bill and Ben had found it. And I heard that directly from them. Plus, I loved the green.

I do agree with them about the 14th hole. I truly wanted to like it but it thought it lacked any options on how to attack the hole. You either kept your tee shot on the left portion of the fairway or you were forced into a very tough second shot that if you weren't perfect on you had a tough third or fourth shot before you are on the green. Now that being said, I have no problem with the hole in the grand scheme of things. It is different but the rest of the holes are strong.

« **Reply #2 on:** November 05, 2005, 10:29:21 PM »

I wasn't overly enamoured of the Trails course. It's a fine golf course, difficult, but when compared to Bandon and Pacific came a poor 3rd, IMHO.

I didn't like the 14th at all, far too penal, really only one gathering area on the rigth side, and left with a shot to a narrow green with pretty much no hope of holding. Even from the left side of the fairway, it is no deal with a long narrow green facing you, sloping to the back. Hole needs some work, again IMO.

David

« **Reply #3 on:** November 05, 2005, 10:44:07 PM »

I continue to think 14 would be a fine hole without a prevailing wind. Into a good 20 kt cross wind the hole is unplayable. The crime is that I think it didn't need to be. A lower tee instead of a tee perched at an aerie would have been much more successful.

JC

« **Reply #4 on:** November 05, 2005, 11:49:05 PM »

Regarding #5, its a biarittz green and completely natural. Bill Coore told me it is 100 percent the way they found it. If the pin is in the front and you go long it is very difficult, so be it.

#14 is a unique hole and if you're a short hitter or high handicap I could see the frustration. Personally I don't like the hole but its Crenshaws and Keisers favorite hole so it does have appeal.

For a 1 handicap I think its some serious whinning. I'm a 5 handicap and I broke 80 from the black tees on my first round.

« **Reply #5 on:** November 06, 2005, 12:05:42 AM »

Quote from: Joel_Stewart on November 05, 2005, 11:49:05 PM

For a 1 handicap I think its some serious whinning. I'm a 5 handicap and I broke 80 from the black tees on my first round.

Note that the above an excerpt from a broader report on Bandon..he was extremely positive about the other two courses (even though his scores were similar) and will be going back in 2006.

« **Reply #6 on:** November 06, 2005, 09:15:26 AM »

Quote from: Kevin_Reilly on November 06, 2005, 12:05:42 AM

Quote from: Joel_Stewart on November 05, 2005, 11:49:05 PM
For a 1 handicap I think its some serious whinning. I'm a 5 handicap and I broke 80 from the black tees on my first round.

Note that the above an excerpt from a broader report on Bandon..he was extremely positive about the other two courses (even though his scores were similar) and will be going back in 2006.

Kevin - can you get permission from Mr. 1.6 to post the rest of this broader report - I would love to see how these comments fit in to the comprehensive opinion.

« **Reply #7 on:** November 06, 2005, 10:49:56 AM »

There are plenty of things to question about Bandon Trails but this one does not come close.

Amazingly, he complains about the location (Oregon coast is obscure!) and lack of gallery space! Complains about a 1/16th mile walk (330 feet) from a green to the next tee. Attributes the course to Crenshaw. Complans about a hump but doesn't bother to distinguish between the 10th and 11th greens. And thinks there could be a 30-foot high rise in a green.

Do we get to find out his name? I think I'll recommend him to Golf Digest as a rater.

« **Reply #8 on:** November 06, 2005, 11:09:38 AM »

A very minor point, but 1/6 of a mile is 880 feet or a bit more than 290 yards.

« **Reply #9 on:** November 06, 2005, 11:38:23 AM »

Wayne,

Brad's reply of 1/6 mile was a typo, the actual distance stated in the initial post was 1/16 mile.

TK

« **Reply #10 on:** November 06, 2005, 12:41:38 PM »

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but you gotta wonder about anyone who would bitch about the 5th green!

« **Reply #11 on:** November 06, 2005, 12:47:23 PM »

Great to see how someone else evaluates a golf course. I never would have thought to base it on my own playing.

If this guys a 1.6 and he shot those numbers? C'mon, there is something rotten in more states than Denmark.

« **Reply #12 on:** November 06, 2005, 02:02:08 PM »

Quote from: Brad Klein on November 06, 2005, 10:49:56 AM

Amazingly, he complains about the location (Oregon coast is obscure!) and lack of gallery space!

Those were observations, not complaints...made to point out that BT was not supposed to be a "tournament" course...instead it is a resort course...I guess those observations were too subtle.

« **Reply #13 on:** November 06, 2005, 02:04:12 PM »

Quote from: Ryan Simper on November 06, 2005, 09:15:26 AM

Kevin - can you get permission from Mr. 1.6 to post the rest of this broader report -

Why the "Mr. 1.6" stuff...the guy posts a review, posts his scores and he is disparaged for it?

« **Reply #14 on:** November 06, 2005, 02:10:10 PM »

Quote from: Adam Clayman on November 06, 2005, 12:47:23 PM

If this guys a 1.6 and he shot those numbers? C'mon, there is something rotten in more states than Denmark.

Wind? A 1.6 is incapable of shooting scores like this at Bandon?

Why attack the messenger?

« **Reply #15 on:** November 06, 2005, 02:10:11 PM »

Yes, the 30 foot rise on #5 green is a massive overstatement. I guess it's a mere 8-10 foot rise. If you hit it thirty yards long to the back of the green on a 120 yard hole, you deserve to pay the price. I birdied it the time I played the hole with the pin front.

Also, the hump on #10 green isn't all that severe, and it is there for a good reason, that reason being to add interest and difficulty to the green. You always have the option of hitting your approach on the side of the hump where the pin is.

In my own experiences, I've grown weary of low handicapped friends who complain about this sort of difficulty on a golf course. Here in the northwest US, players are accustomed to long, narrow, tree-lined fairways and fast, sloped, disc-shaped greens without much internal contouring as the gold standard for difficulty. Sure it's hard, and boring.

One of my buddies up here thought that several of the Bandon Trails greens were ridiculously sloped, and had heard that Coore and Crenshaw were already considering rebuilding several of the greens. I doubt it. I heard (again a rumor) they were very happy with it.

Lately my response to this type of whining is "The course has to be difficult somehow, or else it wouldn't be interesting." I highly prefer this type of difficulty, with big contours and fast turf. Similar to Bandon Dunes, I like Bandon Trails a lot, enough so that I will mix in a occasional round there when I go to play Pacific Dunes.

« **Reply #16 on:** November 06, 2005, 02:17:28 PM »

Quote from: Adam Clayman on November 06, 2005, 12:47:23 PM

Great to see how someone else evaluates a golf course. I never would have thought to base it on my own playing.

Adam,

Noble thought, but I'll be the one who questions this. I know from your many previous posts that you like firm and fast and shot options. Those are your stated preferences, and you're telling me that has no part in your evaluation of a golf course?

Joe

« **Reply #17 on:** November 06, 2005, 02:39:24 PM »

Quote from: Kevin_Reilly on November 06, 2005, 02:04:12 PM

Quote from: Ryan Simper on November 06, 2005, 09:15:26 AM
Kevin - can you get permission from Mr. 1.6 to post the rest of this broader report -

Why the "Mr. 1.6" stuff...the guy posts a review, posts his scores and he is disparaged for it?

You're quoting the wrong guy, Kevin.

Please tell me where I disparaged the author of those comments - I merely asked to post the rest of his thoughts as I would be interested to read them- Having no other identifying features (name, e-handle, graduate of Northwestern University, or something of the like) he's Mr. 1.6 as far as I'm concerned.

« **Reply #18 on:** November 06, 2005, 02:42:40 PM »

Kevin,
Have you golfed with this 1.6? I have played 3 rounds on BT, and without a gale blowing it is inconceivable that he could shoot 84. Is his a vanity handicap?
I would have to agree with others who point out that the contouring of the greens at BT isn't that extreme. #5 being the exception, and as was pointed out, if you can't control a short iron, you have no reason to gripe about the putt you are left with.
I was amazed to learn that most golfers to Bandon prefer BD, so the viewpoint of many on this site is certainly in the minority. However, to call BT a tough course is completely laughable, I am about a 12 and it never occurred to me to think that the course was super tough. Although I had never thought about Kingsley Club as being tough until a number of guys on this site told me that they thought it was.
All in all, to each his own when it comes to opinions, but I know I won't be picking any courses to play based on 1.6's.

I don't know if anyone would agree with this, but I would say MPCC Shore would be somewhat comparable to the type of golf at BT, and I don't think you would call that a really difficult golf course would you?

« **Reply #19 on:** November 06, 2005, 04:32:55 PM »

Mike - I agree. I thought the 5th green was brilliant. The 5th is so un-American in its design that I wonder how many non-US courses our 'complainer' has played.

JC

« **Reply #20 on:** November 06, 2005, 07:50:41 PM »

Quote from: Kevin_Reilly on November 06, 2005, 02:10:10 PM

Quote from: Adam Clayman on November 06, 2005, 12:47:23 PM

If this guys a 1.6 and he shot those numbers? C'mon, there is something rotten in more states than Denmark.

Wind? A 1.6 is incapable of shooting scores like this at Bandon?

Why attack the messenger?

For the same reason a dog licks himself.

Kevin- If this guy thinks BT is too hard. He must be accustomed to the commercial designs the masses ae stuck with. What a pity!

« **Reply #21 on:** November 06, 2005, 09:28:08 PM »

It does seem pretty rediculous for this guy to complain about the difficulty of the course, and call it "almost unplayable for 85 percent of golfers that will ever play it". By this guy's own admission he played the green tees, and those tees only have a stroke rating of 70.9 and a slope of 135. To me, sounds pretty symptomatic of a low handicapper who just played sh*tty that day and wants to blame it on the golf course.

« **Reply #22 on:** November 06, 2005, 10:14:32 PM »

Quote from: Mike_Erdmann on November 06, 2005, 09:28:08 PM

It does seem pretty rediculous for this guy to complain about the difficulty of the course, and call it "almost unplayable for 85 percent of golfers that will ever play it". By this guy's own admission he played the green tees, and those tees only have a stroke rating of 70.9 and a slope of 135. To me, sounds pretty symptomatic of a low handicapper who just played sh*tty that day and wants to blame it on the golf course.

Sounds like that may be the case.

As for a "1.4 index" shooting 80ish scores? Happens all the time, actually. I play with about six or seven legitimate, tournament-tested buddies whose indexes range from 0 to 2, and they probably shoot a round in the 80's ever 8th or 9th round, and that's being generous.

Only when your index gets down into the "plus" range will you shoot very few rounds in the 80's on moderately difficult golf courses. At least that's what my observations over the years have lead me to believe...

« **Reply #23 on:** November 06, 2005, 10:19:10 PM »

I don't think the course is any more penal than the other two, but depending upon wind and the day you are having, you can shoot just about anything at any of those courses. I would, however, say that the three numbers this dude posted from the green tees seem a bit high for a 1 handicapper.

The best golfer in our group was a mid-to-high single digit handicapper, and he shot a 79 his first round at Bandon Dunes. The next day with the wind kicking hard, he failed to break 100 at Trails. At the same time, another one of my buddies posted his best round of the trip at Trails. He shot an 86 and he's probably a 10-12 handicapper.

The most confusing thing in his review was the comment on the 5th green. Is he saying it is a 30-foot elevation change from high point to low point? I didn't have a tape measure with me, but I'd guess that it is closer to 4 feet than 30 feet.

I don't have a problem with anyone posting their opinion, but his criticism seems a wee tad harsh.

« **Reply #24 on:** November 07, 2005, 08:22:12 AM »

I agree with the last couple of posts regarding the bad day. I've somewhat been on both sides of the spectrum. In 2003-2004 I had a string of 34 straight rounds in the 70's, and by the end of it my handicap was a 2. This year I've had just enough good rounds to keep the handicap down, but on my trip to Kohler I shot 84, 88, 80, 87. I've had a handful of other days like that throughout the year. It can admittedly be hard (for me) to rate a course when playing significantly worse than usual. The correct mind-set just isn't there.

Trails sounds like one of those courses that is supposed to be tough for lower handicap types but playable for the higher handicapper. Never having seen the place I could be completely wrong, but that's the vibe I get from other posts. With that, combine a bad day with some obvious frustration and you get the scores the guy shot.

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