Champion Bermuda Greens

« **on:** October 20, 2005, 11:25:05 AM »

I just started playing Scenic Hills GC in Pensacola and they converted to Champion Bermuda greens in June, 2005, while they were closed due to Hurricane Ivan.

The greens are amazingly smooth, firm, true and quick, even early in the morning, and are significantly different than the other Bermuda greens I've played in this area-little or no discernible grain.

I was wondering how many others in the forum have experience with this hybrid and whether this is typical.

« **Reply #1 on:** October 20, 2005, 11:54:22 AM »

I grew up on bermuda and LOVE this stuff. A great solution in the Tennessee transition zone. Very heat tolerant in the summer yet playable in the winter when temps exceed 30d.

Insightful article about Memphis CC and superintendent Rod Lingle:

http://staging.gomemphis.com/mca/golf/article/0,1426,MCA_473_2818512,00.html

« **Reply #2 on:** October 20, 2005, 12:07:42 PM »

Mike,
I posted on Champion Bermuda several weeks ago after playing a course here in Georgia that had converted. They were closed only 8 weeks or so, and the total cost was right at $100,000. It was a tremendous putting surface.

Caledonia converted to Champion this summer. This stuff may turn out to be the salvation for southern golf courses. I'll try to look up the previous thread and post the link later today or tonight.

« **Reply #3 on:** October 20, 2005, 12:17:13 PM »

Mike,
Here's the link to the previous thread on Champion:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=19943

« **Reply #4 on:** October 20, 2005, 12:31:33 PM »

AG,

Thanks for the link. Maybe we should have a GCA get together at a course that has this grass sometime to get more of us exposed to it.

« **Reply #5 on:** October 20, 2005, 12:47:26 PM »

There's a lot of down here in my neck o' the woods. You should try Shadowood Preserve, Bonita Bay East, Naples National, Quail West...the list goes on and on. It's good stuff, hope it's still here after Wilma.

Steve
Naples

« **Reply #6 on:** October 20, 2005, 12:49:00 PM »

From what I can tell, it seems most newer courses are going with tifeagle instead of champions.

« **Reply #7 on:** October 20, 2005, 12:53:49 PM »

It's becoming a great grass to put down in the south to help maintain greens through the hot summer months. We've had a few clubs in the area recently change and all are doing very well. (Brook Valley CC, Ayden CC, The Links at Cotton Valley, Maccripines CC all changed within the last 18 months). These were clubs that needed a change but needed to do so cost effectively and champion seems to fit the bill, and produce a great putting surface, with a lot less maint. than bent grass here in the South.

« **Reply #8 on:** October 20, 2005, 01:26:46 PM »

Interesting no-till concept:

http://www.cturf.com/4_champion/01%20No-Till/01%20No-Till%20Page.htm

« **Reply #9 on:** October 20, 2005, 01:43:09 PM »

Quote from: John Cullum on October 20, 2005, 12:49:00 PM

From what I can tell, it seems most newer courses are going with tifeagle instead of champions.

John,
IMO, there is no comparison between the two as putting surfaces; Champion is vastly better. How it holds up to winter kill, drought, traffic, etc., is beyond what I know. But just for rolling the ball, it is better than any bermuda I've seen.

« **Reply #10 on:** October 20, 2005, 06:12:59 PM »

Mike champions and Tiff Eagle are the bermuda strains of choice now. the maintenance of both is the key. It is hard to get an old school super to verticut and cut them close enough in the summer.

« **Reply #11 on:** October 20, 2005, 08:28:03 PM »

Admirals has Tifeagle and the Ritz has Champion, both are comparable.

« **Reply #12 on:** October 23, 2005, 08:57:45 PM »

Quote from: John Cullum on October 20, 2005, 12:49:00 PM

From what I can tell, it seems most newer courses are going with tifeagle instead of champions.

Where? I have heard that champions is a bit more cold tolerenent. I don't think tifeagle would be an option up here in Atlanta, or so I've been told.

« **Reply #13 on:** October 23, 2005, 09:25:47 PM »

I don't mean to be a prick, but as we're learning about these hybrid bermuda grasses and the correct terminology, it is Champion (no S) bermuda grass.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

« **Reply #14 on:** October 23, 2005, 11:14:38 PM »

Quote from: William King on October 23, 2005, 08:57:45 PM

Where? I have heard that champions is a bit more cold tolerenent. I don't think tifeagle would be an option up here in Atlanta, or so I've been told.

I'm referring to below the fall line, south GA and FL. Up around ATL I'm still seeing bent everywhere. Who has Bermuda up there?

« **Reply #15 on:** October 24, 2005, 08:11:02 AM »

Quote from: John Cullum on October 23, 2005, 11:14:38 PM

Quote from: William King on October 23, 2005, 08:57:45 PM
Where? I have heard that champions is a bit more cold tolerenent. I don't think tifeagle would be an option up here in Atlanta, or so I've been told.

I'm referring to below the fall line, south GA and FL. Up around ATL I'm still seeing bent everywhere. Who has Bermuda up there?

John,
The private courses are still all bent in Atlanta. However, the course I was referring to is The Oaks in Covington on the SE side of the city. The state park system, including The Creek at Hard Labor has or will be converting, so you may be seeing more of this north of the fall line as time goes on. I asked about winter and Champion and was told that you paint it and play; no overseed.

« **Reply #16 on:** October 24, 2005, 08:19:23 AM »

Quote from: Anthony_Nysse on October 23, 2005, 09:25:47 PM

I don't mean to be a prick, but as we're learning about these hybred bermuda grasses and the correct terminology, it is Champion (no S) bermuda grass.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

Tony,

I don't mean to be a prick either but I posted it correctly in the Thread title AND, it's HYBRID, not hybred.

Mike Golden
President
Golden & Associates LLC
Pensacola, FL

« **Reply #17 on:** October 24, 2005, 08:34:03 AM »

Mike, well I am glad no one ever felt the need to put a face on correcting my spelling errors and typos. It is a learning curve for all with these somewhat new grasses. I think 10 years from now the putting surfaces in the deep south will be really good 12 months a year. It is a challenge now to get the learning curve up and find the right maintenance practices to fit the budget.

« **Reply #18 on:** October 24, 2005, 08:43:59 AM »

Tiger,

Great putting surfaces 12 months a year is an admirable goal. It will be interesting to see how these new greens at Scenic Hills hold up through the winter into next summer. Next time you're in town maybe we can get Ace to join us for a detailed investigation, all in the name of agonomy, of course

« **Reply #19 on:** October 24, 2005, 08:53:59 AM »

Mike it is not the grass, it is what your super does with it and what budget and equipment he has. It is not maintenance free grass lol I look forward to seeing both of you very soon.

« **Reply #20 on:** October 24, 2005, 09:53:42 AM »

Quote from: A.G._Crockett on October 24, 2005, 08:11:02 AM

I asked about winter and Champion and was told that you paint it and play; no overseed.

I talked to our super here in FL about paint. We have tifeagle. He is curious to try it. He doesn't think it will work until we go totally private. He thinks it would be a problem on a course with even moderate to heavy traffic.

« **Reply #21 on:** October 24, 2005, 10:41:56 AM »

My club in South Texas just converted to Champion grass. About an 8-week period from killing the old greens to putting on the new greens. As I understand, we will have to punch the greens a couple more times a year, although with small punch holes rather than the larger ones. They're still not mowed down to final speed yet, but I'm happy with the results.

« **Reply #22 on:** October 24, 2005, 10:47:20 AM »

I am by no means an expert, but I have played on tifeagle and I don't see any comparison to the Champion greens that I played on. The Champion seemed to be a much thicker, denser turf that would hold up without an overseed during the winter.

Anybody out there had experience with Champion winter?

« **Reply #23 on:** October 24, 2005, 10:50:20 AM »

A.G.,

I'm no expert either, but we will not be overseeding our greens now that we've converted. Granted, we don't get much of a winter down here, but all courses in my area overseed their bermuda greens.

« **Reply #24 on:** October 24, 2005, 01:27:47 PM »

AG,
Champion has a higher shoot density then tifeagle. Champion is a true ultra dwarf and IMO superior to tifeagle in most applications. The developers of tifeagle were very good marketers and the tif (Tifton, GA, tifgreen, tifway, tifsport) name carried recognition. Champion was also bad mouthed quite a bit when it came out, partly by the competition and party because it took a while to figure out how to manage it. From my personal experience I like Champion and Mini Verde best of the bermuda ultra dwarfs.

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