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Kenny Lee Puckett

Next Post 1960 Course to host the U.S. Open?
« on: October 20, 2005, 09:22:04 AM »
With the U.S. Open course rotation assigned through 2012, what will be the next course opened after 1960 to host the National Championship?

It is worth noting that only Hazeltine (1970 & 1991) and The Atlanta Athletic Club (1976) are post-1960 courses that have hosted the event in the last 35 years.  Surely there must be worthy candidates constructed post-1960.

Two additional points for discussion:

1.  Is the U.S.G.A. playing it safe by sticking with the tried and true?

2.  Does the preferred set-up for these pre-1960 courses for the Open negate the driving distance increase of 24 yards in the last 10 years?

Play away...

JWK
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Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Next Post 1960 Course to host the U.S. Open?
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2005, 11:54:50 AM »
I think Whistling Straits landing the 2007 Senior US Open following a successful PGA Championship makes them the odds-on favorite...
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Next Post 1960 Course to host the U.S. Open?
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2005, 06:30:46 PM »
Thanks to USGA tinkering, nearly every course which has hosted the U.S. Open since about 1973, has been a post-1960 design.
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Ian Andrew

Re:Next Post 1960 Course to host the U.S. Open?
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2005, 08:53:47 PM »
Food for thought.....the Britsh Open courses are all pre 1960 too (with no exceptions).

I think this is all about tradition rather than anything else. There are already enough worthy classic courses to choose from, why the rush to go to something newer.
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Jim Nugent

Re:Next Post 1960 Course to host the U.S. Open?
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2005, 12:44:40 AM »
When they held the U.S. Open at Bellerive in 1965, the course was five years old.  
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tlavin

Re:Next Post 1960 Course to host the U.S. Open?
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2005, 11:29:30 AM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on October 20, 2005, 06:30:46 PM
Thanks to USGA tinkering, nearly every course which has hosted the U.S. Open since about 1973, has been a post-1960 design.

True dat.  But I think this is a legitimate question.  In the Midwest, there are two that are worthy sites.  Butler, while not that visually interesting, is certainly one of the most demanding courses in the country.  It could host the U.S. Open and serve the USGA's purpose of providing a nearly impossible test of golf for the games best.  And it could do it next June!  It also would have the necessary facilities and space in which to do so.  Immediately.

Also in the Midwest, methinks that Point O'Woods is good enough and big enough to host the Open.  It certainly would need to be toughened in some places and have the fairways narrowed in some and have some trees cut down, but I think its location, in southwestern Michigan, would preclude the Open being held there.

Both course, however, are, I believe post 1960 layouts (just barely, in the case of the Point).
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PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Next Post 1960 Course to host the U.S. Open?
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2005, 12:39:31 PM »
isn't Butler banned from having Tour events due to exclusionary membership policies?
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Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Next Post 1960 Course to host the U.S. Open?
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2005, 12:46:55 PM »
If it's not Whistling Straits, then Erin Hills might be a good pick. Erin Hills, a public course under construction in Wisconsin and scheduled to open next summer, has been already been awarded the 2008 U.S. Women's Amateur Public Links Championship.
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Mike_Cirba

Re:Next Post 1960 Course to host the U.S. Open?
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2005, 01:19:34 PM »
Quote from: redanman® (for Q) on October 21, 2005, 01:09:27 PM
Honestly?  Trump National in NJ will probably get one someday; will it be next?  Dunno.  It certainly was built to do so and could.

Agreed...it was built with the intent and they are within shouting distance of Far Hills.  

Of course, that may be down the road a bit when the classic courses doing most of the hosting can no longer be stretched to 7,700+ yards.
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Mike_Cirba

Re:Next Post 1960 Course to host the U.S. Open?
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2005, 01:28:48 PM »
On the other hand, I'd much rather see it at the Ocean Course at Kiawah than Whistling Straits.  

Of course, the USGA is probably concerned about SC temps and humidity in June but isn't the thing supposed to be a pressure cooker anyway?  Besides, that's what ocean breezes are for.
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Dan Smoot

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Next Post 1960 Course to host the U.S. Open?
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2005, 02:18:45 PM »
Could Pacific Dunes with its normal summer winds host a major championship in the firm, fast conditions or is length its limitation.
Or can it support people.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2005, 02:22:58 PM by Dan_Smoot »
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Next Post 1960 Course to host the U.S. Open?
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2005, 03:34:23 PM »
Dan:  I think the USGA would want to make Pacific Dunes longer.  And I doubt they would consider holding the event in such a remote location.

Steve S:  Maybe you should wait until Erin Hills opens before pronouncing it Open-worthy.

There are hundreds of interesting and challenging courses which are "worthy" of hosting a US Open, if the USGA would ever give up its preoccupation with raw length.  Most don't have the infrastructure that would make having a tournament easy; and they don't have the tradition of past events which give a current Open some grounding in the history of the event; or their membership policies make them untouchable, a la Butler.
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Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Next Post 1960 Course to host the U.S. Open?
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2005, 08:25:21 PM »
When's the last time, if ever, a course under construction has been awarded a USGA championship?  
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jeffmingay.com

michael_j_fay

Re:Next Post 1960 Course to host the U.S. Open?
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2005, 10:11:58 PM »
I nominate The Golf Club in Columbus. I don't know which course post 1960 will get the nod but I think that it will be a Dye design.
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michael_j_fay

Re:Next Post 1960 Course to host the U.S. Open?
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2005, 10:27:45 PM »
Why didn't Trump decide on a sport better suited to his overall class, like bowling?
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Next Post 1960 Course to host the U.S. Open?
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2005, 11:01:54 PM »
What year was Torrey Pines built?

I am racking my brain trying to think of a course that could hold the open......its kind of like trying to imagine George Bush (43) as President..... hard to do until he iwas tested under fire.

I agree it will be a Dye Course.  If not WS, what about Oak Tree?  If not Dye, I guess a Nicklaus or Palmer course for their overall contributions, although I don't have many in mind that fit all the requirements of location, quality, etc.

I think the brief experiment in the 60's of hosting the Open on nearly new courses is probably still a bad taste in the mouths of the USGA, although they did go back to both courses, if my memory about a senior open at Bellreive is right... or was that a PGA championship?
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Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Next Post 1960 Course to host the U.S. Open?
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2005, 08:17:37 AM »
The point about British Open courses all being well pre-1960 is that until Kingsbarns there have been no new links courses in the UK.  If they ever took it to the Irish Republic there are a few candidates.  But then they've also got Portmarnock.
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Matt_Ward

Re:Next Post 1960 Course to host the U.S. Open?
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2005, 09:58:06 AM »
The only way Trump's NJ course takes either a US Open or PGA is if Baltusrol is permanently pushed off the scene.

That's not likey to happen.

The more likely scenario is for some special made-for-TV event to happen there -- just as it did with the HSBC event held a few months back at Hamilton Farm.

***

Someone mentioned the qualities of Butler National and I certainly concur. Frankly, if the issue on club membership were not on the table the course is more than capable in hosting any big time golf event. In my mind, it's the best of the lot in the Chicago area. I have also heard about a number of improvements that have been made to the course although I have not personally seen / played the course since they've been made.
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CHrisB

Re:Next Post 1960 Course to host the U.S. Open?
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2005, 01:27:45 PM »
What about Quail Hollow in Charlotte, site of the Wachovia Championship? It's a course that gets almost universally praised by the tour players (I believe some have said that it could host a U.S. Open), and seems to have more of a classic feel to it than many post-1960 courses. I guess that's because it is over 40 years old, having been originally designed by George Cobb in 1962. Good finishing stretch for a U.S. Open--480-yard par-4, 217-yard par-3 to a green jutting out into water, and the 478-yard par-4 18th with a stream hard left the whole way.

Played 7438, par 72 for the tournament this year. Vijay beat Sergio and Furyk in a playoff to win at -12. The 3 winners of the tournament have been -10, -11, and -12, but the key numbers may be the 278, 277, and 276 totals...the USGA could probably convert a couple of par 5's to make it a par 70, and then I'm sure they would think they can get the winning score closer to that 280 mark.

Probably won't happen, but it would be interesting...
« Last Edit: October 22, 2005, 01:28:11 PM by Chris Brauner »
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Stan Burton

Re:Next Post 1960 Course to host the U.S. Open?
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2005, 04:41:08 PM »
From a totally homer prospective...
I think Wolf Run could easily host the Open.  Enough length at nearly 7300 yards, very narrow fairways, plenty of trouble around the very small greens and a current slope rating of 153 (prior to recent changes), makes it a perfect USGA Championship course.  Geographically Indianapolis is ideal and  the architect isn't too shabby either.
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Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Next Post 1960 Course to host the U.S. Open?
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2005, 09:53:41 PM »
Victoria National in Newburgh, IN
  I believe that it is hosting an upcoming USGA event and has desires to host an open. It's a 1999 Tom Fazio design that is currently in the Top 100 in both Golf Digest and Golfweek.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
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Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Next Post 1960 Course to host the U.S. Open?
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2005, 11:35:39 PM »
- What about Valhalla?
- Stanwich is post-1960, but I've heard they don't want any PGA or US Opens.
- Perhaps The Honors Course, if there's enough room?
- Perhaps Pete Dye Golf Club; I've heard it's outstanding (I know there's a Nationwide event there)
- The Ocean course would be cool, but it's going to be a ZOO in terms of traffic.  I shudder to think of the gridlock...

I just get the feeling that the U.S. Open tends to represent the "old standards" of architecture, even though the USGA tends to alter those standards as they see fit.
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Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Next Post 1960 Course to host the U.S. Open?
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2005, 11:48:51 PM »
Pumpkin Ridge in Portland Oregon has potential.   It has the land for parking, corporate tents etc and the desire.  When I played there, the club president told me that even though they played the Womens Open and Amateur on the Witch course, the USGA said they would use the Ghost course for the US Open.
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Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Next Post 1960 Course to host the U.S. Open?
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2005, 10:26:35 AM »
Quote from: Mike Cirba on October 21, 2005, 01:28:48 PM
On the other hand, I'd much rather see it at the Ocean Course at Kiawah than Whistling Straits.  

Of course, the USGA is probably concerned about SC temps and humidity in June but isn't the thing supposed to be a pressure cooker anyway?  Besides, that's what ocean breezes are for.

Actually, June in South Carolina is quite nice.  The PGA is coming here in August 2012 and in downtown Charleston, it feels like you're taking deep breaths of oatmeal.  Here on the coast, it will be a lot more comfortable, a heck of a lot more comfortable than past inland PGA Championships...
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mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Next Post 1960 Course to host the U.S. Open?
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2005, 03:24:57 PM »
A few that I would enjoy seeing:

Blackwolf  Run  River
Firethorn  (Dye)
Karsten  Creek
Harvester (Foster) in Iowa

Old  Kinderhook
Wolf Run
Four Streams (Smyers)
NCR  (1955)
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