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Michael Plunkett

south Jersey courses
« on: October 08, 2005, 11:38:16 AM »
Anyone in my neck of the woods ever play White Oaks Country Club in Gloucester County?  Part of the River Winds group, it is a short but enjoyable course- very easy of the eye.  I do not know who designed the course.

Any thoughts?

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:south Jersey courses
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2005, 12:35:15 PM »
Mike

I played there once about 2 years ago. A good value course that doesn't beat you up. As the website states,"A Feel Good Course."

For some pics: www.whiteoaksgolf.com

Here's some info on the course's development:

The latest course to take seed is Arret and Emory Dobson's par 71, 6,500-yard White Oaks Country Club  

Designed by Steve Filippone with additions and features by golf course builders/designers Ted Ellsworth and Mike Gaffney, this parkland-style 155-acre layout, cut out of 238 acres of pine and oak trees, is scheduled to be open for public play next May. Six-to-nine holes are slated to be open for members in the late fall of this year.

The site, previously owned by the late Sam Fabian, was already approved for a golf course before the Dobson brothers purchased it.

``About a year and a-half ago a local Relator had this property listed,'' Arret Dobson said. ``We knew nothing about it until I had conversation with someone in the township. I'm a local builder. My brother and I have a development company.

``Just in conversation with the planning board secretary, I learned that this site had approvals for an 18-hole golf course and I asked to see the plans. She let me see the plans. We were a little interested in it.

``The current owner had passed away and left it to his estate,'' Dobson added. ``I guess he was about five-to-seven years getting approvals from the state. We are in the Pinelands. We contacted the local Realtor to find out what the asking price was. We haggled for probably six or nine months before striking a deal with the estate. Last 4th of July weekend is when we started clearing.'' Five months after the clearing began, Gaffney and Ellsworth, owners/operators of the Southern Sands Golf Design and Development Company, were called upon to apply the finishing touches.

``I had know Ted (land developer) for a couple of years,'' Dobson said. ``We had been looking around for golf courses before. And just for what I seen what Ted and Mike did at Cape May National, we knew they we the guys to bring over here.''

Gaffney came over from the Sand Barrens Golf Club, where he was general and project manager. He oversaw construction of first 18 holes and did some of shaping. On the third nine, ``I did a lot of the shaping and fine grading prior to seeding,'' Gaffney said. ``I learned a lot.''

According to Gaffney, pine and oak trees will line all the fairways. The fairways will be bent grass, 40-to-50 yards wide. The greens, also bent grass, are on the large size. The smallest is 5,500 square feet with the largest being 13,000 square feet. The average size is about 8,000.

``I was brought in after the first of this year to take a look at it and realized that there was a lot more to be done here,'' Gaffney said. ``They decided to go ahead and spend the money. Basically, everything you see feature-wise I've done. It's all my design. The routing except for a couple of points where we changed for safety's sake was done by someone else.''

One feature includes an upper and lower green at the par-4, 350-yard (white tee) ninth hole. A body of water crosses the shorter lower green, with the same water coming into play to the right of the longer upper green.

The par-4, 322-yard (white tee) 15th hole plays to an almost island green with a waste bunker wrapping around the green from the upper right to the upper left.

The 17th, 220-yard par-3 plays to a 12,000 square foot, 70-foot long green, with a fairway waste bunker to the left. A shot hit to the right can roll onto the green. However, it's still a putting challenge to make par. The oversized green offers a lot of movement.

The three par-5's … holes 3, 7, and 10 … play to 455, 562, and 552-yards, all from the white tees.

``My job,'' Gaffney said, ``was to shape and do all the feature work on the golf course, which basically became redesign of all the thought process. I built in all the features, looked real hard at the drainage. I try to make the golf course very playable, enjoyable and challenging.''

At the right price.

``Right now it looks like $45 during the week and $65 on weekends,'' said general manager Nick Pileggi. ``We looked at some of the other area courses and we didn't necessarily want to be the highest, and certainly didn't want to be the lowest because of the quality of the course. We wanted to make sure it was marketable right from the beginning.''

As part of the marketability White Oaks is offering, among its memberships, a weekly individual membership at $1,000 per calendar year. This package will include unlimited greens fees Monday through Friday (carts not included), a 14-day advance tee-time reservation, member-only golf clinics, member-only golf tournaments, bag storage, access to the locker room, handicap privileges and a 10 percent discount on all golf shop merchandise.

And, unlike most new courses, White Oaks will have its clubhouse in place when the course opens. The spacious patio-styled brick building will be complete with bar, grille room, restaurant, locker rooms, banquet facility and a complete pro shop run by director of golf Mike Nicolossi.

``The owners, since they were builders, wanted the clubhouse done the same time as the course,'' Pileggi added. ``It will be done ahead of schedule. As an added attraction, the clubhouse will be a salute to Masters Champion and two-time U.S. Open winner Bill Casper. The clubhouse will feature memorabilia.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Matt_Ward

Re:south Jersey courses
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2005, 01:10:14 PM »
If the choice comes down to White Oaks and RiverWinds the latter wins hands down in my opinion.

White Oaks has two really good holes -- the 7th at 621 yards and the 17th at 240 yards. There are way too many trees on the property for my liking but I do agree for Joe Sixpack the course offers a very fair rate and has some interesting green contours / bunkers. Frankly, if anyone lives more than 50 miles away I don't see why the need for a ride when other better alternatives are clearly available.

To be fair -- it's tough to do much with the pro-forma flat-as-a-pancake southwestern NJ topography. That's an issue plenty of courses in South Jersey face.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:south Jersey courses
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2005, 01:24:41 PM »
For us "senior golfers" the M-F rate of $35 including a hotdog and soda can't be beat. ;D
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

JBergan

Re:south Jersey courses
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2005, 06:35:35 PM »
For us "senior golfers" the M-F rate of $35 including a hotdog and soda can't be beat. ;D

$35?  I need a fake ID. ;D

Michael Plunkett

Re:south Jersey courses
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2005, 12:14:06 AM »
JB, you couldn't pass for a thirty year old without ID.   :)
Me, that's a different story.

And the hot dogs are huge-  I can say that on here, right???

I played it the other day and although I love River Winds- the course gets beat up badly late summer and never heals until spring. I'm glad the pro is gone from RWs. I hope they can get a grip on the course conditions.  White Oaks compared to a few other local courses was in excellent shape the other day.  

Steve, thanks for the info- I remember reading that but on the day I posted this, that page would not appear.

I like the trees, it is very easy on the eyes. I like this course way better than I like ShoreGate. Even if it is shorter.

Twisted and Scotland are my two choices. Pine Hill if it is still open next year.

JeffTodd

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Re:south Jersey courses
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2005, 02:21:16 PM »
White Oaks is a nice little course and a good value, as mentioned. It compares favorably with other area courses that are in a similar price range, and I've always found it to be in good condition. My biggest complaint would be the feeling that they simply ran out of room in the finishing stretch of holes. Four of the last five holes are short, two-shot holes, all in the 300-350 yard range, and all using some sort of waste area or bunkering to try and mitigate the lack of length. However, in practice, all four holes play quite similarly, and are generally easy holes on which to score. That said, White Oaks is a fun place to play. It's not a great course, but it is a relaxing, isolated venue that is much better than most other sub-$60 rounds in the area.

Sadly, both White Oaks and RiverWinds suffer from a lack of a practice range. That is especially bothersome at RiverWinds; it's not the kind of course on which you want your first swing of the day to be on the first tee. I agree with Matt Ward, RiverWinds is a much better course overall, although I'm not crazy about the finishing holes there either. #18 isn't bad, but that elevated tee box is kind of ridiculous. The meat of that course, #4-#12 (except #8), are pretty good though.

Mike_Cirba

Re:south Jersey courses
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2005, 02:27:11 PM »
I like this course way better than I like ShoreGate.

Michael,

That statement could apply to 99.9% of the golf courses I've played!  ;)

Michael Plunkett

Re:south Jersey courses
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2005, 09:54:52 PM »
I like this course way better than I like ShoreGate.

Michael,

That statement could apply to 99.9% of the golf courses I've played!  ;)

I'm still laughing three threads later......

Gee, I thought 99.999 per cent.

I was so psyched to play Shoregate a few years back on one of our late winter shore trips. Really psyched- couldn’t wait.   I came off the course feeling like a was the object of some TV punk'd show.  Never have I felt like a chump.  I have played bad golf, but that’s on me.  The course is classless.  

I will be back to White Oaks but NEVER (not even free) to Shore Gate.

Matt_Ward

Re:south Jersey courses
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2005, 09:29:41 AM »
Jeff Todd:

Very smart observation / re: 18th tee at RiverWinds. The hole would have played far better without the inane tee-pee tee that's there.

The middle holes at RiverWinds are among the best you can play in public golf in Jersey. They are all very challenging and Ed Shearon did a fine job in that regard. The par-4 9th dog-legging left is one of the best par-4's you can play in public golf in the Garden State.

Gents:

Last item on White Oaks -- the course is a good bargain but the details for the architecture are fairly average with the exception of the two holes I mentioned at the outset. For those who don't want to be clipped as so many AC type courses will do -- White Oaks is an alternative. A better choice can also be played at Buena Vista -- the William & David Gordon design in Buena -- off of Rte 40 just 20-30 minutes west of AC. The issue there is always the inconsistent conditioning. Be interested of anyone has played it recently.

Michael Plunkett

Re:south Jersey courses
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2005, 02:48:54 PM »
Jeff Todd:

Very smart observation / re: 18th tee at RiverWinds. The hole would have played far better without the inane tee-pee tee that's there.

The middle holes at RiverWinds are among the best you can play in public golf in Jersey.



Very nice holes in the middle  I like the 11th   gutsy green on above the 'burn'.

Tee-pee   I call it the temple of Doom.. but it has a nice view of the setting sun and its color casting off the oil tanks along the river.    

I hate 17.  Cheap.

Matt_Ward

Re:south Jersey courses
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2005, 03:37:33 PM »
Can anyone say with a 99.99% of specificity if the sand / dirt has been upgraded on the solitary bunker that guards the front of the 17th green at RiverWinds?

Last time I played there it was compacted mud with a hint of sand -- just like the amount of salt I throw on my steaks. ;D

JSlonis

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Re:south Jersey courses
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2005, 04:48:13 PM »
As for Buena Vista that Matt Ward mentioned...

If you like over treed courses with a lot of doglegs, then Buena is the place for you.  As for conditioning, it is usually okay with VERY, VERY slow greens.  I'm not sure, ;) but I think I may have actually saw a golf ball roll back up the stimpmeter upon touching the green at Buena. ;D

There are some good holes at Buena, and with some diligent tree removal, the course could be a pretty good muni.  
« Last Edit: October 11, 2005, 05:08:37 PM by JSlonis »

Matt_Ward

Re:south Jersey courses
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2005, 04:53:16 PM »
The original layout at Buena Vista was not overly treed -- that has come with the later years.

The William & David Gordon design is quite good -- you need to see the par-5 10th as just one example -- the long par-4 2nd is also a fine hole, to name just one other example.

Regarding turf issues -- I never said it was Augusta.


JSlonis

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Re:south Jersey courses
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2005, 05:06:15 PM »
Matt,

Usually the grass/conditions there are quite good, it just needs to be cut lower.  I understand that as a public course, it'll never get the treatment that the private courses get, but every time I've played it, it's been in good shape, but the grass is just too high to make for an enjoyable round.


Matt_Ward

Re:south Jersey courses
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2005, 05:08:00 PM »
The same can be said for any number of public courses in and around the AC area -- the difference with Buena? You don't pay anywhere near the same green fee.

The issue with Buena Vista is that the elements of a fine design are there. Will the folks in charge ever reach their potential. Doubtful.

JSlonis

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Re:south Jersey courses
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2005, 05:14:09 PM »
The issue with Buena Vista is that the elements of a fine design are there. Will the folks in charge ever reach their potential. Doubtful.

I agree.  There are some fine holes there, Buena is definitely a step above many of the bland S Jersey muni's.

JBergan

Re:south Jersey courses
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2005, 08:11:16 PM »
I like this course way better than I like ShoreGate.

Michael,

That statement could apply to 99.9% of the golf courses I've played!  ;)

I'm still laughing three threads later......

Gee, I thought 99.999 per cent.

I was so psyched to play Shoregate a few years back on one of our late winter shore trips. Really psyched- couldn’t wait.   I came off the course feeling like a was the object of some TV punk'd show.  Never have I felt like a chump.  I have played bad golf, but that’s on me.  The course is classless.  

I will be back to White Oaks but NEVER (not even free) to Shore Gate.

In addition to what appears to be too many (and ugly) bunkers, what else what bad about the course?

Matt_Ward

Re:south Jersey courses
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2005, 08:17:08 PM »
JBergan:

Shoregate suffers from the "over the top" syndrome. The land in Southeast Jersey is dead flat and save for the pine trees that engulf much of the property -- you get this desire to "include" just about anything that can be thrown into a design in order to deal with the lame terrain.

The bunkers are simply hideous and way "over the top." If you look at the motif of neighboring Sand Barrens in Swainten you will find numerous bunkers, however, the manner of their creation -- their placement and the way they have been constructed fits to a much better degree than the "throw the book" approach you get at Shoregate.

The best thing that could happen to Shoregate is to move away from the "maximum" school of design and go towards a much more simpler version of itself.

There are a number of unique holes at the course but it's simply a matter of lowering all the unnecessary volume you get design wise.

Michael Plunkett

Re:south Jersey courses
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2005, 08:18:15 AM »
Its dishonest.  I can stand on the tee with the yardage book in hand that clearly shows the fairway and green. But when I look up from the book- no fairway. Neat trick, cutting away mounds and filling the front of them with sand. Some holes, you have no idea where to hit.  And I am not talking, honest blind shots, but as you said "over the top" and fake.  I played it early and I swear we were told, everything was a bunker -no waste bunkers on the course.  Tough when some pine scrubs grow in some the size of small county.  
If you don't like a Mike Stranz course, play ShoreGate and you will realize the genius Mike was. Tough and fair is a far cry from wacked and dishonest.

Sand Barrens may be the most forgotten south jersy course.  I don't know why I don't go back. Management??  Don't know.  27 nice holes, Lots of sand, but fair targets to hit.  

btw:  pet peeve.  Golf path only and having circumvent some of these waste bunkers to get to the ball that takes more time than walking or being on the fairway.  

Jerry Kluger

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Re:south Jersey courses
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2005, 11:04:23 AM »
Matt Ward recommended Sea Oaks to me and I was not disappointed.  It has some really good par 3s, interesting short par 4s, risk/reward par 5s, a really cool double green and it was in great shape when I played it.

I think it is agreed that Shore Gate is just over the top but I would like to ask what you think of Twisted Dunes.  I think it is a fun course and gives you a lot of options on how to play many of the holes and is surely unique, but why is it so well accepted when it clearly is contrived with the mounding and the attempt to make you feel that you are playing through some natural sand dunes?

mike_malone

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Re:south Jersey courses
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2005, 11:11:27 AM »
 Jerry,
     My feeling at Twisted Dune is that the artificial dunes are usually well out of play. As opposed to the mounding at Stone Harbor that runs along the edges of the fairway.

 I must say that this framing does make me feel like I am in Ireland after about 5 or 6 holes.
AKA Mayday

JeffTodd

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Re:south Jersey courses
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2005, 11:18:57 AM »
Jerry,
     My feeling at Twisted Dune is that the artificial dunes are usually well out of play. As opposed to the mounding at Stone Harbor that runs along the edges of the fairway.

That was my reaction to the question about Twisted Dune as well. There is significant "noise" that surrounds the holes, but it really doesn't come into play. I recall viewing some bunkers that were on high mounds in the backdrop of some greens and thinking that it was almost impossible to conceive that anyone had ever found their way into that sand. Personally, I think the course would look better without some of the unneeded mounding and bunkers, but I don't think it would play at all differently.

mike_malone

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Re:south Jersey courses
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2005, 11:25:23 AM »
 Jeff,

  When you do hit it into one of those bunkers, you feel like an idiot. I know! I believe that since it is all sand anyway the forming of some bunkers just changes the look a little. Sometimes it also provides an aiming point.
AKA Mayday

Michael Plunkett

Re:south Jersey courses
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2005, 11:35:38 AM »
Archie could not build Twiste Dune that way (which I love) if it wasn't for the tunnel to the Bagota in AC. He was able to get rid of the dirt for them.  Okay, not in like Doak but still a sexy course that is fun to play.


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