I am visiting Vegas in a couple of weeks time, and looking for recommendations of places to play.
I have already played the Pauite courses, and the Colbert course, but what others are really worth playing...Shadow Creek apart...thanks..Michael

Michael:  

We went there over over Memorial Day weekend and played Shadow Creek, Primm Valley and intended to play the Wolf Course at Paiute resort, but I screwed up and got a tee time at the wrong course.  We played Wolf Creek in Mesquite.

Primm Valley is about a 40 minute drive, is much more reasonably priced than many other courses in the area and I found it enjoyable.  They have two courses

I would consider Wolf Creek one of the worst courses I have ever played.  It is stunning visually, but the first bad sign was that you had to sign a waiver in order to drive a cart.  It was an exciting cart driving course, but from a golf perspective was a tricked up target course that you play in high winds.  If I recall correctly, they did not even have the back tees at the locations listed on the scorecard presumably because of the slow play that would result.  You might want to consider it for the humour of it.  If you do, go in the afternoon when the winds kick up.

Jason,

Surprised to hear your experience at the Wolf Course was that bad.  I played it from the back tees and aside from the island green on the back nine, thought it was a solid, enjoyable course.  The winds would certainly dictate which tees to play.  In heavy winds the 7600 yard tips would be a bad idea.

I never found anything "tricked up" and for what is essentially a resort course, found it fun.  Certainly more enjoyable than courses in Henderson.

Ken

Ken - I think we are talking about different courses.  I am referring to Wolf Creek (www.golfwolfcreek.com) as opposed to the Wolf Course at Paiute Reservation.  Wolf Creek is about 6900 yards from the back tees.  

Michael - this is turning into a thread jack and I apologize.  Here is a thread that I used when I decided where to play.  

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=16875;start=msg294781#msg294781

Jim and Don:

I'm surprised you both liked the course so much.  Here are my specific criticisms (from memory and based on one visit).  I doubt I will go back, although I am sure it is much more enjoyable without wind.  As I understand it, it usually blows at that location.

1.  Target architecture resulting in slow play.  
2.  Holes straight up or straight down hills that are simply guesswork.
3.  I really disliked the par three that was something like 220 yards, straight downhill and surrounded by water.  It was an all or nothing shot and simply a guess.
4.  The course was so soft it was mush, even on a hot afternoon.  I presume they have to keep it that way to keep balls in play.
5.  Although it is an interesting course on which to drive carts, there are speed bumps everywhere that were annoying.
6.  I felt like it was primarily a test of patience.  You simply need to keep the ball in play.  Because of the extreme elevation changes, the aiming point was simply a guess without any chance of recovery if you screwed it up.
7.  On holes with more room off the tee, there didn't seem to be much decisionmaking involved.  

I loved the look of the course and it is amazing terrain.  I just cannot imagine liking the course for anything other than the views.

Wolf Creek has to be one of the ultimate "love it or hate it" golf courses. I'm much closer to "hate it".

Spectacular scenery? Sure, if the golf course weren't there. Big canyons are cool, seeing the valley paved with green carpet just looks beyond artificial, it looks like one of those joke "Toughest holes you'll never play" calendars. And I'm not the only one who thought so; 2 other people from our group of 12 made the observation independently.

The carts thing is beyond ridiculous - I would estimate hearing 2 tire screeches every 3-4 minutes. There are SPEED BUMPS on the cart parts!

The only thing that somewhat redeems the course is that there are some interesting, albeit kind of goofy, holes.

#7 is a par 4 I'd like to sit on the tee with a 3 wood or driver and see if I could drive the green - but it's not really a driveable par 4, as the green is perched on a ledge up above a pool of water that covers the last 50 yards or so. No sane person would try that if playing for any stakes whatsoever, but it'd be fun to try if you were killing time.

#3 is a pretty cool, deceptive par 3 with a skyline green. It looked much closer than it played.

The par 5 on the back that meanders down the hill, followed by the 90 degree dogleg short par 4, and then the long cape-ish par 4 15th(?) were a near stretch.

Lastly, no one with any kind of fear of heights should ever play here. I felt nauseous on a few tees and one of my friends walked off after 5 holes.

Goofy golf on a grand scale to me - a "spectacular" challenge for others. If you do play it, be sure to chime in on the ongoing debate.

My vote would be that anyone going to Vegas plays Shadow Creek, if only so that we can get some more interesting discussion on it.

Jason:

Just a quick question -- do you enjoy quirky courses from across the pond? Do you enjoy quirk at all?

Wolf Creek in Mesquite -- the one designed by Dennis Rider -- is a well done quirk modern style course. I don't doubt the cart rides and the signature you needed to provide -- but let's move away from the side issues and talk about the unique shots -- different ones I might add -- that you face when playing there.

Too many times people bitch and moan on this site about the lack of "thinking outside the box design." Wolf Creek is that and more. I've played it about six times on various trips in and around the Vegas area and frankly it blows away the likes of Shadow Creek, Cascata and Rio Seco, to name just three of the more "noted" courses in Sin City.

Is Wolf Creek always 100% fair. No -- it's not. But neither are such quirky but touted holes from across the pond like the Dell Hole at Lahinch or The Road Hole at TOC.

To each his own I guess.

Adam:

Shadow Creek is a picture of dreams concocted by Wynn and Fazio. If you really believe it is more fun to play than Wolf Creek by all means knock yourself (and wallet) out.

Adam - surely you jest when you say "taste" and "restraint." Tell me how unique the individual holes are at Shadow Creek? People fawn over it because of its location and the story attached to it. I can name no less than six holes at Wolf Creek that blow away the "taste" and "restraint" you mention and they are quality through and through.

I find it so laughable when people gush on and on about quirk when it comes from across the pond. However, whenthese same folks play a modern quirk style courses here in the States they leap forward with the inane and silly statements that it's "puke" and all the rest. Likely these same folks didn't like the idea that Wolf Creek is more match play style golf than stroke.

Adam -- I've played Wolf Creek on more than one occasion and would be happy to debate any of the holes there -- I do admit -- that several holes at Wolf Creek are lack luster like the pedestrian 10th and 11th, to name just two. Frankly, I can name quite a few more at Shadow which is just simply a testament to man's ability to overcome -- where is the beef with the holes partner? I guess you prefer golf "lite" to the real thing -- even when it's edgy like Wolf Creek.

But I'm kind of disappointed because I thought you had more stomach than wanting the tame version of golf design.

So be it ...

Wolf Creek was worth one play, but I rode the brake down those scary cart paths and frankly, it spoiled my round.

I enjoyed it.

Matt - Interesting to think about whether I have a double standard when it comes to quirk.  I don't think I do.  

I enjoy quirk when it provides interesting golf, examples from across the pond include Prestwick, Lahinch, Dooks, Crail (the old one).  For me some of the most memorable shots involve those blind shots over dunes in which you just have to trust your swing.

On the US side, I really enjoy Town and Country in St. Paul, which has a very odd par configuration and an interesting 3-5-5-5-3 finish.  I enjoy blind shots, probably from growing up on a hilly course with a wayward game.  I enjoy par three finishing holes and I particularly enjoy a hole on a local course in which a barn comes into play off the tee.  

For me, Wolf Creek does not have quirk that is interesting.  That problem is compounded by all of the "side issues." What holes do you think are good there?    

Jason:

There is a heavy double-standard at play here on GCA between those who gush on and on and wax poetic about quirk (many times unfairness) on the other side of the pond but when it happens here in the States scream bloody murder about how unfair holes ABC are from Course X.

The reality is that Wolf Creek combines a wild and truly out-of-this-world site -- it looks more like the surface of some strange planet than earth. The course embodies a wide diversity of holes where the gamble element (how appropriate given the Nevada embrace of risk and reward through modern gambling) is alway a central component. No doubt -- you can get bad bounces but in the six times I have played the course I can truthfully say that if you hit the correct shot the reward / penalty dynamic is quite consistent.

When you say quirk provides for "interesting golf" -- please enlighten me where Wolf Creek doesn't provide for "interesting golf" -- I'd like to know specifics because simply penning general broad brush themes serves no purpose for future discussion. I can name a number of holes at Wolf Creek where quirk is in play and where you have to, to use your words, "trust your swing."

The issue of double standards is at play regarding quirk across the pond and when it happens here in the States. Given what Dennis Rider has done to overcome the obstacles in building in such a hostile environment I believe he has done a yeoman's job in being so successful.

Wolf Creek is akin to an Indiana Jones movie -- there are always a whole slew of challenges and adventures that awit those who play there.

Adam:

With all due respect -- there's more to Wolf Creek than just six holes. I just mentioned the holes that are well done by Dennis Rider given the natural obstacles such a site presented.

Keep in mind another point I mentioned which you simply glossed over -- Wolf Creek is in the vein of a number of courses across the pond that favor the match play element between players rather than the redundant aspect of stroke play. Why is one style course favored over the other? In the case of Wolf Creek it's more to do with its zip code in Mesquite than anything else.

Let me name them since your memory seems to be fading.

The 1st is a wonderful starting hole -- the par-5 gives you a bids-eye view of the site and the elements of danger are present.

The 2nd is an interesting hole because of the options you face. I do have an issue with the turning point because you need to give a bit more room for the ball to stop. However, the walk to the extreme back tees gives you a view only Dante would have had over the infernal abyss.

The 4th is a solid short par-4. You can cut the corner if you dare but the smart play is to opt left. If you go too far left the length and demands of the approach go up considerably.

I also enjoyed the short par-4 7th -- where the player must decide if the green is something they want to gamble on reaching. In addition, the green contours are well done -- especially the far right side.

At the 8th you face, arguably, one of the most demanding long par-3's in the USA. People who don't play the appropriate tee box on this hole will clearly be upset and frankly they are idiots for trying to be something they are not.

I mentioned the downside of the 10th and 11th holes -- plus I can say the obligatory waterfall to the left of the 18th hole is more Vegas theme park than golf hole.

However, you must have forgotten the unique downhill par-5 12th -- the superb dog-leg right short par-4 13th that goes up into the box canyon. What about the special qualities of the par-4 14th? The tiny dot of a green at the par-3 15th. The go-or-no-go gambling aspects of the par-5 17th?

The issue for many at Wolf Creek is that too much attention is centered around the cart paths. I don't deny the hills but clearly I have played far more courses where the travails of riding were more suspect than what you find at Wolf Creek.

You tap danced around my answer to you -- Shadow Creek is more about HOW IT CAME INTO EXISTENCE as opposed to what is actually there. Frankly, is there any hole at Shadow Creek that is memorable?

Adam -- help me stop laughing when you use the word restraint and Shadow Creek together. I mean I'm falling off the table holding my gut from laughing so long and hard -- Steve Wynn and the word restraint don't belong in the same sentence. If you can't see that with Shadow Creek and its existing zip code than frankly you have been in the noon day sun far too long partner.

I really like Reflection Bay.The new freeway makes it easy to get to.The elevation makes it feel like a Hawaian course with both nines going up and coming back down to the lake.The people and conditions have always been nice.Haven't played shadow creek,but I have played some of the others .This is the one Vegas course I always enjoy going back to.

a waiver for taking a golf cart?  people may have died from the cart situation?  is this GOLF club atlas or RACE CAR atlas?

I like quirky, and , before this thread,really wanted to play WC, but this stuff has taken off some of the course's lustre for me.....