[Matt_Ward]

I had the pleasure in returning to Arrowcreek -- the major housing community in Reno, NV and I have to say the 36-hole complex there is quite good.

In fact, one of the layouts is by Arnold Palmer and I have to say that besides Oasis in Mesquite -- the design here at Arrowcreek is quite good and worthy of a look for those who may be in town.

The course is just under 7,100 yards with a 73.6 CR and 130 Slope but it's the manner of the terrain (quite sloping) that makes the interplay of the holes work quite well. It's not about the difficulty but the manner by which quality holes -- not simply filler holes -- were used on the rolling terrain that makes Arrow Creek so unique.

Too often AP designed courses are just renditions of the same formulaic efforts -- you get obligatory flanking bunkers that are so big and normall never in play for any serious shotmaking challenge. The greens can often be rather large and never really detailed for any complexity.

The real course of distinction is the sister course to The Legend -- named the Challenger by John Harbottle III w Fuzzy Zoellar throwing in his name as the "celebrity" designer.

The Challenger is a first rate design that weaves its way for 18 holes on some of the most unique property you can find in the western USA. The course starts uphill right off the bat and it's rare when such severe terrain can be used in a compelling and artful manner. Best of all instead of a forced nature to return after nine holes -- you stay on the course for the duration of the round.

The course plays just under 7,600 yards with a 76.0 CR and 138 slope. The first three holes give you a quick introduction that The Challenger is far from being just your basic "housing" course with nice views. I also have to say that the location of the Challenger does give superb views of the Reno / Sparks valley and surrounding areas.

The first three holes march into the higher ground -- the opening hole is good par-5 575 yards and it takes two big blows followed by a short iron to get to the desired pin -- the green is also well done with a split run between the left and right sides.

The 2nd hole ups the meter even more so. Here you have a slight dog-leg left that goes uphill continually in a gradual manner with plenty of trouble on the left side but the more you go right the intensity of the approach increases in terms of the level of execution required.

Once you get into the round the variety of the holes changes often. The Challenger Course constantly changes gears throughout the round -- both in hole yardage and in direction. The rolling land is well done and the greensites are positioned in a variety of ways to never settle in some sort of routine.

I have to say that I am amazed that the layout doesn't easily make the top ten in Nevada. I like it better than Montreaux (too many ponderosa trees that encroach the site) and it's clearly miles beyond the stale and empty nature of Edgewood Tahoe.

All in all, both courses are a fine collection of golf and I rarely say that about any Palmer course. John Harbottle III has done a worthy effort that more need to see and appreciate IMHO.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Matt,
Did you happen to get any images of the place so that you may further share your vast and superior golfing knowledge with Classic GCA Knuckleheads like myself?

[Matt_Ward]

Tommy:

Think of it this way -- if Ward likes it you won't.

See -- I just saved you a trip to Reno.

If you want more info you can always go to arrowcreekgolf.com

By why bother -- Ward likes it and he never "gets it."

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Matt,
Wht are you talking about?

You and I share the same view on a lot of courses. A whole lot of them! You know it! So, that argument is null and void.

I have just suggested to you in the past week that you should start posting images as a way of allowing more people to see your points of light. You need help to post these images, I'm here to help. My other suggestion is that your writing to many is no different then picking-up a local golf ragazine. (no typo) I suggest the images as a method of making the same-everytime form-like review, more pallatable.

As far as Reno, I have been there a few times in my life--never to golf. When there are just so many other important places to discover great architecture that look much more appealing to my eye--architecturally, I have to go were my mind and pocket book takes me. Places like Indiana, Michigan, Ohio, Nebraska, (I'm starting to sound like I'm going to some college football games) Chicago, The Sandhills of North Carolina and parts of South Carolina and Georgia.

Cheers

[Michael Whitaker]

Yea! South Carolina made The List!!! (At least "parts" anyway)  

[Matt_Ward]

Tommy:

I will try to get some photos of the place posted. If there's an issue I'll forward them to you and you can post them if you'd like.

Yes, we have agreed in the past on a number of courses but the idea that my comments are "lite" is far from the case. Case in point -- Pronghorn in Oregon. I posted numerous details on a number of the holes and the totality of the layout. If people are in total need of photography in order to validate the words of the writer well then there's nothing I can say to change their minds.

I know what I played in Reno and candidly John Harbottle III deserves a helluva salute for one fun course to play with his Challenger Course at Arrowcreek.

The issue I have with some on GCA is that the mere mentioning of new courses worthy of attention is dismissed if that course is not designed by the favorite "pet" architect at the moment or it's not in the preferred location -- the left and right coast lines.

Tommy, next time you're in Reno try to play the layout. Like I said our tastes in golf are more different than similar. I'd be more interested in your comments after you play it.

[Mike_Sweeney]

If people are in total need of photography in order to validate the words of the writer well then there's nothing I can say to change their minds.

Matt,

I have no interest in debating with you on courses in Reno. Reno is for skiing, and I am probably not strong enough anymore to ski Sierra Cement (snow). Seriously, I am a visual person/learner. The thing that attracted me to GCA (probably most) were the pictures of courses in Ran's reviews of courses that I have never seen.

It has nothing to do with your writing, it is simply the way my brain works. I know it is a pain in the butt to post a good picture, but it is appreciated.

Cheers.

[Michael Whitaker]

Matt - I think I have figured out all these calls for pictures... they don't believe you actually play the courses!!! They think you just google a course, read up on its features, then post a recap compiled from other's work. Prove them wrong, Matt! Take some pictures... time stamp them... even show yourself in a couple so they'll know you were really there and didn't just snatch some photos from another site. Wouldn't it be sweet to finally put all these couch-potato-knuckleheads in their place? You know it would!!!  

[Joel_Stewart]

Matt:

Wouldn't you rate Arrowcreek a 4 or 5.  I think on the Doak scale it might be a 3 or 4.  Seriously, it doesn't deserve a hole lot of attention on this web site.  

There is another 36 hole facility called Redhawk which is about the same quality.  It features a RTJ Jr. course and a Hale Irwin course.

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

Please -- stop with the Olympic-itis elitism about what constitutes quality golf -- I think you're better than that.

Arrowcreek is a fun 36-hole layout and frankly for the trash / fast food that masquerades itself as housing development type golf is not what's present at Arrowcreek. As Gib mentioned previously on another thread the threshold for most courses should revolve around the word fun. Arrowcreek's Challenger Course does that quite well.

The course is blessed with wonderful rolling terrain set against the foothills of the Sierra that overlook Reno / Sparks and the Harbottle design gives you a broad range of holes. It
can accomodate all levels of players and provides sufficient width -- something Montreux doesn't do -- and it can test without being extremely demanding with narrow greens -- ditto Old Greenwood.

Joel -- please tell me specifically what is so wrong with the Harbottle layout. In addition, the Palmer design is quite advanced for what generally calls itself Palmer golf. I also think Harbottle did a nice job with the nearby Sierra Nevada which Johnny Miller collaborated.

Joel -- I'm not holding The Challenger as some sort of modern equivalent with Black Mesa or Pac Dunes but it's far advanced for the high scale fast food design that lies at the heart of 98% of all housing golf communities that I play.

One other thing -- Red Hawk is a waste of time. The routing on the Hills (Irwin) layout is flawed -- it's like driving on the various freeays in LA -- a constant and unrelenting bore. Frankly, I hjave played a few Irwin designs (Towa in NM, The Mountain Course at Cordillera) and they all seem to be woeful results. The original 18 at Red Hawk (called The Lakes -- by RTJ Jr) is a nice effort but it's simply a repetitive exercise on land that really cannot raise a pulse with anyone who seriously enjoys golf course architecture. Truth be told -- you'd have a much better time playing D'Andrea instead and I'm not a major fan of that layout either.

Michael W and Mike S:

Pictures can be helpful no doubt -- but if anyone doubts I play the courses in question all they need to do is contact the respective courses speak to the folks running the show there.

I never comment on a course that I have not played or thoroughly walked. Including pictures would be helpful to add to the narrative provided. Point well taken and I'll try to accomodate whenever possible.

Mike S -- the golf in Reno is not a "must go" spot just yet but the movement is going in that direction with future developments and golf primarily because of the invasion of people from the Bay Area and others points in California who might to still pursue the American dream within their financial constraints.

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