[Dennis_Harwood]

All four of the semifinalists in the MidAm this year are reinstated pros--and a awful lot of the match play qualifiers who fell along the way were also--

I'm not suggesting that there is something improper about those individuals competing, since they all were only briefly pros, but :

(1) Is there something about trying to chase the dream, realizing you can not quite make and returning to golf for fun that gives you an advantage over the lifetime amatuer that may still be wondering if he should have chased his dream, or

(2) Is it with the big money these days the best golfers coming out of school simply can not afford not to give it try (so the best golfers now amatuers all gave it a try), and the days of the "lifetime amatuer" are dead.

I expect its the latter but would be interested in opinions-

[Brent Hutto]

The guy who wins our city championship most years played for a couple years on the PGA Tour back in the late 70's or early 80's. He quit the Tour, coached college golf for a while (during which time he was reinstated as an amateur...beats me how a guy pulling down a good salary coaching college pros-in-training is an "amateur" while a guy making half as much teaching golf lessons to hackers in a "pro") then ended up as an insurance company rep who plays golf five or six days a week.

So whatever the deal is, it isn't a new thing.

[Bob_Huntley]

Consider me an old fogey, but once you have sold yourself for money you can no longer consider yourself virginal.

The USGA should have a tournament for those players who have not played for money. I know the old hoary comment about rich men's sons a la Stanahan and Chapman etc., that had unlimited resources to play tournament golf hold good, but I love seeing the local pharmacist or doctor winning something of value.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dennis,

It's a dilema.

I had this same conversation with Frank Hannigan over 20 years ago.

The semi-finals and even the quarter-finals were dominated by reinstated amateurs for many years

I've heard numerous suggestions with an eye toward remedying the situation, but, none seemed practical or could gain support.

Some want to ban them forever, some for 10 years, some for 5 years some for 3, 2 or 1 year.

It would seem to present an inherent advantage, but, what's an equitable solution ?

TEPaul,

I"m familiar with the words diluvial and deluvian, but, what do floods have to do with the GCA.com crowd ?  

[Jeff_Mingay]

Perhaps the US Mid-Am should be renamed the "US Reinstated Amateurs Championship"?!

 

[James Bennett]

Perhaps the US Mid-Am should be renamed the "US Reinstated Amateurs Championship"?!

 

or 'The Reborn Amateurs Championship'

or is 'born again' amateur more appropriate.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Having a pointed head always provided a good fit for the "dunce cap".

It's rumored that my pointed head inspired the writers and cast from SNL to invent the sketch about the Coneheads.

Or, was it my propensity for consuming vast quantities of alchohol.

Are all proponents of restorations antediluvian ?

[JSlonis]

What is a PRO?  There is a huge difference between diffferent types of so called "Pro's".  

There are guys that played Mini Tour events after college in hopes of one playing on the PGA Tour, there are a few reinstated pro's that actually played on tour, and there are a lot of guys that didn't know what path to take after college, who became Assistant Pro's on the club level.  

I took the Assistant Pro route after college for a few years.  I would have hardly considered myself a professional golfer.  I was about as far removed from being a professional player as an assistant pro, than I am now as an Amateur.

The difference between a "professional golfer" and a "golf professional" is night and day!

[Dennis_Harwood]

What is a PRO?  There is a huge difference between diffferent types of so called "Pro's".  

There are guys that played Mini Tour events after college in hopes of one playing on the PGA Tour, there are a few reinstated pro's that actually played on tour, and there are a lot of guys that didn't know what path to take after college, who became Assistant Pro's on the club level.  

From the USGA website the four players in the semis were from the Nike(or Nationwide) Tour (2); Canadian Tour (1) and PGA Tour --4 years making 41 cuts out of 91 events (1)-

But my point was not that the Mid Am should bar prior professionals--I am not opposed to that-- They should not have any other label than amatuer--but I do see a talent level that comes with competiing as a touring pro that can not be achieved by someone who has never "been on a Tour".

Its an issue of seperation between the tour level player and the lifetime amatuer.

I doubt most of the public knows that most of the match play qualifiers were touring pros, and are not (as is often advertised) weekend players just like the guy at home ("take a few lessons and maybe you can play next year")

Is there a seperation in the game (and this includes design and set up) from the good weekend player and the individual who actually did play at the tourning pro level (even if he was not good enough to make a career living at it)--?

I'm concerned that a game which for many years all played on the same field is evolving into two games --one hardball and one softball--

[JESII]

What is a PRO?  There is a huge difference between diffferent types of so called "Pro's".  

The difference between a "professional golfer" and a "golf professional" is night and day!

Having just been reinstated or reborn or re-blessed with virginity, I agree with Jamie on this.

Interestingly, the USGA just modified their reinstatement guidelines to reduce the wait for most all applicants. The tide seemed to be towards making it more difficult, but now most people will only have a one year wait with some extended to two as opposed to a standard two year wait with some extended to three.

[ForkaB]

Jim and Jamie (and Dewitt Weaver, etc.....)

You can't really be just a little bit pregnant.  I think that's what Bob Huntley is saying.

TE Paul

You are the old fogey of the bunch.  At least Huntley has the virtue of purity, and Jim and Jamie the virtue of practicality.  You just wallow in the slough of indecision.

You know and I know that golf will be a lot better off when the powers that be just give up this ghost that there is (or ever has been) such a thing as an amateur..........

Cheers

Rich

[Jason Topp]

For those of us that have no idea what these guys are talking about:

an·te·di·lu·vi·an    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (nt-d-lv-n)
adj.

Extremely old and antiquated. See Synonyms at old.
Bible.

Occurring or belonging to the era before the Flood.

From www.dictionary.com

[Tony_Muldoon]

My TE's sleeping late today - must be working up the energy for a loooooong rant!

This could be really something

[Scott Stearns]

if the original question is whether a journeyman professional golfer (as opposed to golf professional) has some advantage to handling the pressure, i think no.  I REALLY think the golf pro has no advantage.


i think its unlikely that, coming down the stretch, a guy who played some mini tours but never made the show is saying something like "this pressure here in the US mid-am is nothing like what i faced during my pro days", nor is he saying "boy, i won the Hooters greater white plains open, so winning the mid-am and going to the masters is no big deal".

being an am might be less pressure than being a journeyman pro and eating hot dogs out of the back of an RV, but thats really a matter of the quality/stability of one's day job.  I know i'd be saying that playing the mid-am beats working at my job any day.

only guy that might, in my view, have an advantage, in my view, is a guy who has won on a major Tour.  Dillard Pruitt, for example.  Even in a case like this though, i think playing for a national championship is a little different.

i think the reinstated am phenomenon is really a reflection of the fact that, since at least the late '70s, the pro tour has offered a good living and anybody who had a fighting chance to make it tried to do so.  i dont think there are too many guys who passed on the tour are wonering what might have been (WISHING maybe, but not wondering)

the reinstated ams are just better players., and i 'd gues they were better players before turing pro too

[JESII]

Jim and Jamie (and Dewitt Weaver, etc.....)

You can't really be just a little bit pregnant.  I think that's what Bob Huntley is saying.

Rich

Are you telling me I'm not actually as virginal as I feel?

I guess I should expand on my agreement with Jamie.

He mentioned his having worked in a pro shop for a few years after college. I played professionally full time for three years in an attempt to make a living on the PGA Tour. When you work in a pro shop full time you have no more advantage or opportunity to significantly improve your game than one who finds a job in a bakery from 5 am to 2 pm. I was playing and practicing on a full time basis as well as playing in a tournament just about every week for three years.

My waiting period for reinstatement was three years, I assume Jamie's was less (most likely two, but possibly one). Will I feel some competitive advantage if I get back into competitive amateur golf? Maybe, I've played so litte in the last three years it's hard to tell. I would argue that Jamie never really gained much of a competitive advantage over the baker due to the nature of what he did.

This competitive advantage is not at all concerning talent or ability, Jamie was a very good player prior to turning pro and continued to be after returning to amateur golf.

the USGA is in a tough spot in dealing with this situation because every story is different. How do you draw a line when each circumstance is so vaguely different? If you say amateur status should never be reinstated I have no argument, that's fine, but all that would do is have a negative effect (probably minor) on the quality of professional golf. Is that a concern? You tell me, I don't know.

[ForkaB]

Tom

I jest not!

You know and I know that amateur tennis is alive and VERY well these days, just as amateur golf will be once this folly of the shamateurs is dealt with.

Cheers

R

[ForkaB]

Jim

I think that you and Jamie and whoever should be able to play in any tournaments that you wish--pro, amatuer, hybrid, whatever.  You deserve to be able to test your game against the best, whenever you want, even if those best include asst. pros, ex-Nationwide players or even TE Paul or whatever.....

Cheers

Rich

[JESII]

Rich,

I can now play in any of these tournaments, I don't understand your post.

[George Pazin]

You're not alone, Jim - no one can make sense of Rich's position on this. I've been asking him for clarification for years, but I still haven't figured it out.

Having different tournaments for amateurs and pros is no different than having different qualifying standards for majors. It is up to the tournament organizer to decide whom he wishes to invite.

Some time ago I proposed the following (paraphrasing myself ):

2 years suspension for each year played on PGA Tour/Nationwide Tour/European Tour/etc. Suspension beyond 5 years is a lifetime suspension.

Winning on Tour as a pro might also be grounds for lifetime ban - I'd have to think more about that.

My exposure to golf pros who work in pro shops is that there probably shouldn't be any suspension, though I wouldn't have a problem with a minimal one.

And no suspensions for hole in one prizes, please - that's more like a lottery win for most folks.

I do think there needs to be more clarity in the definition of "a player of distinction" or "player of national renown" or however the standard for non-reinstatement reads.

[THuckaby2]

And no suspensions for hole in one prizes, please - that's more like a lottery win for most folks.

G - your wish has come true re that one, at least here in the US - check the changes for 2006.

T

[Scott Stearns]

JES--
do you think you learned anything abt playing under pressure from your three years as a pro that you wouldn't have learned playing three years as a natiionally ranked amateur?

speaking of the mental side, not your opp to practice and play a lot.

[ForkaB]

Jim (and George)

I think that not only should you be able to play in those tournaments, but that the Chip Becks (or even Tiger Woods', or Annikas or Michelle Wie's) of the world should be able to play there and then too, if they so wished.

Comprende?

What's so hard to understand about that, George.....

[JESII]

Rich, and I think Shivas as well,

It all goes back to the basic tenents of the game; integrity, sportsmanship, etc...



While I was playing professionally (and living in Florida) I maintained a membership at a club just outside of Philadelphia.

Why should I be able to spend the entire winter playing professional tournaments and then return in the spring and compete for our club in the GAp inter-club team competitions?

Why should Annika Sorenstam be permitted to play in the US Womens (or Mens) Amateur when Callaway is paying her $5,000,000 a year because of her proficience (sp?) at the game?


Scott,

In short, yes.

I think anytime you do something with all of your focus and energy it sinks in. For about a year or year and a half I was able to go out and play with very little practice and shoot very good scores. This happened primarily because I still had the confidence of knowing what to do and how to do it. I would not say that I have that competitive advantage today however, after three years. In my case I would say the USGA policy did its job, but in others I would say it does not. trouble is, as I stated before, it's so difficult to draw the line properly they are bound to have different effects on different people.

p.s. to my knowledge the USGA mission in these cases is to eliminate any competitive advantage one might have from having played on a full time basis.

[George Pazin]

While I would love to tee it up with any of those folks, Rich, there is stratification in all sports.

Should Barry Bonds be allowed to go back and dominate the Little League World Series?

Should Michael be allowed to go back and get that varsity spot he missed out on in 9th grade?

Should I be allowed to blow out my other knee dominating a girls youth basketball league?

There are already open events that anyone can attempt to enter - tons of them. There are also amateur events for people who wish to compete at their own appropriate level.

[JESII]

Shivas,

I agree with you on the notion of once a pro always a pro.

I disagree with your proposal to let people bouce back and forth from pro to amateur at their own whim. The problem with your examples are, imagine I am a computer programmer for SAP and I'm good. They pay me $250,000 a year to do this. Can I enter a programming contest at the local community center and hope to win the trip to the bahamas and feel it's a level playing ground? Talent aside, I have access to resources noone else in the contest has.

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