[Kyle Harris]

Mike and Wayne,

Philmont started as a nine hole course laid out by an engineer in 1906 on 97 acres. At first, golf wasn't too popular at the club (Tennis and Polo were) but it eventually caught on to the point that the club hired Park to add nine holes and reorder the existing holes into the current South course. This seemed to be something he did often since he reordered the existing nine done by Pop Rutherford and added nine holes at PSU.

The club history posted on the GAP website also attributes the North Course to Flynn in 1924.

The quirkiness/weirdness of the South Course is probably attributed to the original nine holes and Park only having very limited space at the time to work with. It seems reasonable that he may have never even been on site.

As for the timing, the GAP history seems to indicate that Park was hired due to his work at Berkshire, which I believe was done in 1920.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Who did the current 18th hole on South? It was done so that the driving range could be expanded. It's out of character with the rest of the course as railroad ties are used to contain the fairway bunker.

My understanding is that there are no records in the club's archives or in the local newspapers to document that Flynn designed the North at Philmont- as strange as that may seem for a club that will celebrate its centennial in 2 years. North sure looks like a Flynn. Maybe the "quacks like a duck" test will be used here. Whatever appears in the club's history at GAP re Flynn may be based on oral history.

[wsmorrison]

Steve,

As per your suggestion, I emailed Roger Gimbel, a descendent of Ellis Gimbel, the Philadelphia department store magnate and founder of Philmont, and hope to hear back from him regarding the history of the South and North courses.  I'll let you know if I hear anything.

Do you think he'll read my screenplay?  

Kyle,

Where did you get your information?  There seems to be little evidence to support the familiar attributions.  I certainly would require some higher standard of proof before making any conclusions just yet.  It wouldn't surprise me if Flynn made changes on the North but who knows if he did the original design?  As to Park and the South, maybe he redesigned the course and that is what Platt referred to in his letter to Gimbel.  All speculation without any evidence...so far.

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne,

Most of what I know is hearsay corroborated by the GAP history.  My own interest in Philmont stems from my project dealing with the development of clubs centered around the Philly suburban rail lines. Mike Cirba and I chatted about this last night and he has a theory of his own that sounds reasonable, but as you said, not much backing it with hard evidence yet.

Seems to me the preponderance of opinion lies with Flynn doing a renovation of something Park designed and perhaps a few new holes. I'll let Mike go into the details as this is his puppy. But it would seem that the South Course mostly existed as today as early as 1908. My own theory is that Park was hired as a name architect while over in Scotland and just sent plans over on the Mauretania or something during that time.

You mentioned to me awhlie back that you didn't have any plans for Philmont North, which is what planted the seed of doubt about the Flynn attribution. When Flynn did renovations, etc. did he draw up plans such as the ones you have?

Steve,

Apparently, the ubiquitous Gordons of Doylestown did some changes for the new driving range, including a touch-up of the 18th. Again, Mike Cirba... wake up earlier, you went to bed before me!  

[wsmorrison]

Kyle,

I assumed that the North Course was Flynn and the South Course by Park, Jr.  Bob Labbance was the firts to mention that the South Course, built in 1907 or 1908, was done while Park, Jr. was back in the UK.  Without evidence, I don't see how you can suspect that Park was hired as a name architect and sent plans over.  It is possible but what would allow you to speculate on that?  Did Park mail in plans for Penn State or other courses you are familiar with?

Then Bob Labbance has a letter from J.Wood Platt to Ellis Gimbel, dated Dec. 11, 1924 thanking him for inviting him to play in the opening tournament of the new Park course.  Is Platt in error?  Does this refer to Flynn's redesign of the previous Park work?  Nobody knows right now.

It may not be significant because there are other errors, but the list of courses that Flynn's daughter and Bill Kittleman came up with (March 8, 1979) and was the basis for the Flynn write-up in Cornish and Whitten book does not mention Philmont as either a design or redesign.

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne,

It was pretty much a brainstorm. Covering all possible ideas, and that one was the best one I could come up with. It would explain why the course/features do not really have a Park feel, especially if they were interpreted by a Landscapre Architect or something. Pretty much all I got, just seeing what sticks and what doesn't to the people who know more about it than I.

Park was on-site at PSU and Berkleigh, both completed in the early 20s.

By the way, you should come up here sometime to see the Joseph Valentine Turfgrass research facility. I've got another extra ticket for this weekend's game.  

[wsmorrison]

"By the way, you should come up here sometime to see the Joseph Valentine Turfgrass research facility. I've got another extra ticket for this weekend's game."

I'm pretty busy this weeken, but hope to take you up on a game sometime.  Flynn lectured at Penn State and I've tried to find out if there are any records/transcripts of his lectures.  No luck.  Any ideas how to track them down, that is if they do exist?

[Mike_Cirba]

My theory, and that's all it really is, seems to fit fairly nicely with the facts that are known.

For instance, it's known that a nine-hole course was built in 1907 by a "local engineer", and that demand was such that a second nine was built in 1908, purportedly by Willie Park.  I know believe this is probably in error.

It's also known from Bob's research that J.Wood Platt wrote Mr. Gimbel something about "the new Willie Park course" in the 20s, although it would help to get a specific year.

We also know that the Gordons did work to both courses in the 50s to accommodate a driving range.

This is what I think happened;

The original 18 holes were probably built by the local engineer and possibly the addition was done by members, not Park.  It may have not even occupied the exact same ground as the present South Course.

However, in the 1920's Park was brought in to either revamp the existing course, or build a complete new one.  My guess is that this course may have included some of the holes that are now on the North course, and I'd speculate them to possibly be 1, 2, 9, 10, 18, none of which look much like Flynn.  Park likely also built or revised holes at that time that are today occupied by the driving range.

At the end of the day, there was probably 18, or possibly 27 holes.

Then, at some later point I think Flynn added at least 9 holes and possibly 18, reconfiguring the other course in the process.  I'd be really surprised to hear that the holes in the mid sections of each nine on the North Course (on the furthest points of the property) are not Flynn.

Then, the Gordon's came in the 50s and with the building of the driving range, added two brand new holes (12 & 13 of the South Course), and reconfigured others, including #3 & #18 of the South.  They may have done other work, as well, and are also attributed with some unknown changes on the North course at that same time by Cornish & Whitten.

Feel free to shoot holes in this theory, but I think it has some merit for consideration.  

But, I'd be VERY interested to see what the Hagley museum has for Philmont as well as the years involved.  

[Kyle Harris]

Yes, several different ways.

First start would be the Ag Library, it has a pretty extensive collection of lectures and papers written under the auspices of the University that is open to the general public. A good start may be the PSU Agricultural Extension.

Next up, Pattee/Paterno Library, I know they have an extensive golf architecture and agronomy collection (Forrest Richardson's book was just recently added). They also have all the USGA Green Section Records and reports dating back to the twenties. I've never done a specific search for Flynn, but I will next time I go in - probably Sunday.

[wsmorrison]

Kyle,

Your search will be most appreciated.  Good luck, if you find anything it will be very valuable.  Thanks!

Mike, the Platt letter was Dec. 11, 1924.  

J. Franklin Meehan was working on North Hills a bit after Philmont South was completed, maybe he was involved in some way?

Let's meet out at Philmont sometime and see what we can come up with.  Unfortunately, the club has nothing.  I wonder if they do have the Hagley photographs?

When we meet with Barb for the Cobb's Creek photos, we can take a look at Philmont too.

[Kyle Harris]

When is the Cobb's Creek stuff happening? I'd love to take a look for myself, if possible.

[Mike_Cirba]

Possibly someone smarter than me could get this aerial link to appear on this thread?  

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Huntingdon+Valley,+PA&ll=40.131313,-75.044990&spn=0.015118,0.027153&t=k&hl=en

The holes on the upper left are the ones I believe Flynn added on the North Course.  Interestingly, there are nine of them.  

The ones in the trees you can see are quite different in style, bunkering, etc., including the really bad 9th hole of the North.

The present South course is mostly to the lower right, and you can see where the driving range cut into the property.  

[Kyle Harris]

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Huntingdon+Valley,+PA&ll=40.131313,-75.044990&spn=0.015118,0.027153&t=k&hl=en


I was taking a look at that myself, Mike. Also, holes 10-13 of the South course are North of the maintenance shed on the eastern side of the propert. Probably the most awkward stretch out there.

Is 9N the sweeping dogleg?

[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle,

Yes, 9 North is the C-shaped dogleg.  

I smell the Gordons.  

[Kyle Harris]

My initial comment about the South course was that it was built on a dare...

Pity too, it was in GREAT shape when I played it.

[mike_malone]

 Mike,

  That Google Earth is scary good! It looks like those nine holes may be a different land parcel. What do you think?

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,
That's actually just plain old Google Maps.

Google Earth is even scarier good.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

Agreed...I bet it was a Flynn "add-on".  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I find it amazing that this club that is proud of its historical significance has no records-contracts,invoices,plans,board minutes,etc-to document any of this.

[mike_malone]

 Kyle,
  I went to Earth to search--that is why I was scared!

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,
  I went to Earth to search--that is why I was scared!

Ahh, always knew you lived on Mars.  

(Sorry, that was there for the picking).  

[wsmorrison]

Steve,

Maybe there was a fire or flood at one time and records were lost.  That clubhouse seems a real hodgepodge.  Do you know if there was some sort of loss of property?

Maybe we can get Andy Karff on this even if the results might exclude Philmont from future Flynn Cups  

Eighty years later, I think we need to be very careful on making determinations of architectural attribution.  I agree that a number of holes on the NW part of the property are Flynn-like and there are a number of other holes that seem below grade.  But we need to fill in some very large gaps before knowing a little bit about Philmont.

I'll call David Gordon and see what he remembers about his and/or his father's participation at Philmont.

[Mike_Cirba]

Wayne,

I agree that speculation can be dangerous.

That's why I was clear that what I presented is only a theory, based on the facts that are known at this time.

It'll be an interesting discovery process, that's for sure!  

[mike_malone]

Only played here once, but I wonder if Flynn may have done something on the "other "greens.

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne,

I agree that speculation can be dangerous.

That's why I was clear that what I presented is only a theory, based on the facts that are known at this time.

It'll be an interesting discovery process, that's for sure!  

Brainstorming is good though, as it can lead to avenues not otherwise considered. It would seem the pen in this group (Wayne) is being very rigorous when it comes to information. Which is key.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()