[T_MacWood]

What became of Alister MacKenzie's new course at Troon? It was used as the qualifying site for the '23 Open and was considered somewhat controverial because of its difficulty. In the few pictures I've seen of it, the course appears to be relatively flat with MacKenzie's trademark bold bunkers and greens.

[ForkaB]

It's the Portland Course ("2nd" course at Royal Troon GC).  Good track, although a bit shortish.  Used for car parking and tented village at Opens now.

With his characteristic modesty, Dr. MacK says in "Spirit of St. Andrews" that it is better than the Championship course.

[T_MacWood]

Rich
Are you certain MacKenzie said Troon Portland was better? Have MacKenzie's typical bold bunkers and greens survived?

[ForkaB]

Rich
Are you certain MacKenzie said Troon Portland was better? Have MacKenzie's typical bold bunkers and greens survived?

Yes, Tom

I just finished reading "Spirit of St. Andrews."  He might have said something like, "Most people think that Portland is the better of the two courses," but the intent was transparent.

Portland is a kinder, gentler MacKenzie--much like Pitreavie. Since it was known as the "Relief Course" in its early existence, I doubt if boldness was asked for or required.  (Disclaimer--while I have I played it about 5 times, the last time was in 1988 or so).

Rich

[BCrosby]

Tom -

MacK did indeed say that his Portland was better than the Championship course at Troon. On past threads, people from the UK have speculated that it may have suffered from neglect during and after WWII and is not now what it once was.

Bob

[T_MacWood]

"Troon Portland was, incidently, one of the courses we constructed and was far more subtle and required more knowing than the old Troon course"

This is the only quote from 'The Spirit of St.A' I could find.

MacKenzie wrote an article about the course shortly after it hosted the qualifying for the Open...one gets the impression to respond to the criticism (especially from Sarazen). He basically states that those who familarized themselves with course prior to qualifying did well, those who did not, paid the price (see Sarazen). Evidently the greens must hve been pretty wild too....not everyone was crazy about the greens.

The course it replaced was a relief golf course (designer by Willie Fernie). It was destroyed during the war...it was used by the military as bombing school. Watch your step.

MacKenzie's course may be a relief course today, but when it was designed it was considered a championship golf course...used as the qualifying site for the '23 Open. In fact MacKenzie claimed it was the youngest course (built in 1920-21) ever to host an Open qualifying.

It doesn't sound like MacKenzie's bold bunkers and greens survived.

[BCrosby]

What was the Sarazen connection with Portland? Did he have a bad qualifying round there in '23 and criticized the course?

If so, it is an interesting precursor to Sarazen's criticism of ANGC some 15 years later. I'm starting to think Sarazen was a bit of a clodhopper when it came to gca.

Is Portland where the Sarazen/Mack animus started?

Bob

[ForkaB]

Tom

I think there is more than one comment on Portland in the SofSt.A.  The name of the ocurse was changed from "Relief" to the Portland (as in Duke of) over a year after it was used for Open qualifying.  MacK did blame Sarazen's inability to qualify on the fact that he did all his practising on the Old course.  I don't blame him, given that he surely expected to qualify for the big event. MacK was just giving him the needle (and inflating his own importance) IMHO.

I think you are just speculating (or smoking MacKenzie's exhaust) if you think that the Portland was ever anything but a nice 2nd course.  There are a lot of nice but not great courses that serve as Open qualifiers, even today.

[T_MacWood]

Bob
Sarazen came over to qualify for the 1923 Open and laid an egg at Troon Portland. No doubt this is where the ill feelings began. Sarazen was also on the US Ryder Cup team that was upset at Moortown in 1929.

Rich
I believe you have mis-read MacKenzie's explanation. He was not tooting his own horn IMO, but simply explaining away Sarazen's complaints. "The majority of men who are enamored with the Old Course at St. Andrews will admire the New Course at Troon, and those who dislike St. Andrews (and they are a gradually decreasing number) will continue to criticize it."

I have no idea when the New course changed its name to Portland. All I know is that in 1923 MacKenzie said the old course (which was destroyed during WWI) was known as the 'relief course', and he referred to Portland as the New course.

In 1925 Darwin called it both the No.2 course and Portland. He said "according to some people , is still better, and is almost certainly more difficult."

I supect the course you played is a mere shadow of the course MacKenzie, Sarazen and Darwin faced.

[ForkaB]

I supect the course you played is a mere shadow of the course MacKenzie, Sarazen and Darwin faced.

I suspect you are wrong, Tom.  If you played the course you would know what I mean.  There is absolutley no evidence of any renovation of the course, and absolutley no adjacent land which might have harbored some better holes that are now NLE.  All the evidence (scanty as it is) points to the current Portland course as being the same course that MacKenzie built and Sarazen played.

As for when the course was renamed, you do in fact know when that was, becasue I told you the date in an earlier post.  I got it from the Royal Troon website, but maybe you don't believe them either!

Slainte

[T_MacWood]

Rich
I was looking over at the Royal Troon website and it is obvious MacKenzie's bold bunkering did not survive. I wonder about his greens as well since they were the object of some of the most severe criticism.

Funny thing the website has no mention of the relief course being destroyed during WWI or Alister MacKenzie....maybe you should shoot them an e-mail.

[ForkaB]

Tom

How do you know that MacKenzie's bunkering at the Portland course was "bold?"  His bunkering at the relatively contemporaneous Pitreavie is anything but bold and probably never was (calling FBD for confirmation!).

[Chris_Clouser]

Tom,

I would tend to agree with Rich on the topic of the Portland course since he has been there and done that and with everything that I have seen of the course.  In what I have found Mackenzie was more than willing to tilt anything that could be subjective in nature towards whatever view would help to inflate either his ego or his reputation.  An example follows of this habit.  

In my research on Maxwell I found several comments by Mackenzie about a course in Oklahoma that he visited that was constructed by Maxwell.  He was quoted as saying the course was far superior to three courses he had heard so much about before seeing them on his journeys in America.  The three courses he felt were inferior were Garden City, The Lido and The National Golf Links.  The course he thought was superior was Twin Hills.  So I would always take Mackenzie's matters of opinion with a block of salt.  

Now Twin Hills is a very nice course with some excellent holes and a very superb routing for the site, but I would never classify it as being in the rarified air of those other three.  It is without a doubt that that Mackenzie was trying to inflate the reputation of someone that was soon going to be his partner in business.  In talking with a relative of Maxwell's that also met Mackenzie, they thought Mackenzie was a very nice man with a bit of bravado but wasn't afraid to add any puffery to comments.    

Basically what I'm getting at is that just because a course was done by an architect and they say it is an excellent course doesn't really make it so, even if it is a course done by one of the heroes that so many on this site bow down to every night.

[T_MacWood]

Rich
I don't know about Pitreavie, but I do know Troon Portland had MacKenzie's typical big bold irregular bunkers....based on photos from the Open qualifier. If MacKenzie had anything to do with the construction of Pitreavie I'd be very surprised if it did not have his typical bunkering in 1923. If I'm not mistaken both courses were built by his brother Chuck.

Chris
What exactly did MacKenzie say about Troon Portland that is out of line in your opinion (a gross exageration)? His comments appear to be fairly modest.

What do you make of Darwin's comments (his comments are more audacious IMO)...was he prone to puffery as well?

MacKenzie was no doubt a huge ego and never shied from praising his own work, but from what I've read (and I've read quite a bit of what he has written) he was not prone to wild exagerations. His supposed comment about Twin Hills is outrageous. Who did he make these comments to?

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