[Matt_Ward]

I'd like to throw forward a discussion on the merits -- comparisons / contrasts between these two gems in Michigan.

I don't have the time right now to go into depth but I'd like to hear from those who have played both and how they would stack them up.

I believe Mike DeVries has done a steller tour de force job with both designs. I'll follow-up when I have the time to write.

Personally, I see both courses as being very close to each other in terms of overall quality.

[Matt_Ward]

One thing to get things going -- I believe the 1st at Greywalls is the superior opening hole to what you see with The Kingsley Club.

The views of Lake Superior in the background and the myriad of strategic options you get with the first in Marquette really makes you stand up and take notice for the joy ride you are about to encounter.

Simply a tour de force routing in some difficult terrain and the green sites are collectively some of the best you can play.

[RJ_Daley]

Matt, I don't know how many responses you are going to get.  Not many have played both, yet.  We must remember this thread and resurrect it after the group outting at Greywalls in Sept.

You have really peeked my interest however, as the first at KC is quite a full platter of options and consequences to start the round.  Of course, there is no lake in view...

[John Morrissett]

Matt --

I have played both and agree with your thought that they are very close in overall quality, even though the character of each course is quite different (because of the vastly different properties involved).

First, a disclosure: I have taken advantage of the amazing deal for Marquette's national membership. Marquette is a neat city that my family and I enjoy visiting. (It has the best playground I have ever seen.)

Each course shares the fascinating appeal of having the golfer leaving the 18th green wanting to proceed immediately to the 1st tee, as it takes many rounds to begin to "get" each course.  With each round you realize a new way to play one hole, etc., and that wants you to rush back out.  On each course you look forward to playing the next hole.

I agree that the 1st at Greywalls is a contender for the best three-shot opener I know.  The prospect from the tee wants you to play golf immediately, and the green is outstanding.

Other favorites (among many) at Greywalls include the 9th and 14th.  The approach to the latter with the angled green is superb.  The 14th will likely be a sleeper hole, as it may proveto be the hardest par on the course.

What may ultimately determine where Greywalls fits in the world golf picture is how holes 15-18 play.  After just a few rounds there (and then the 16th and 18th greens were closed), I can't say.  The 18th is a hole where you just need to forget about what par is and look at it as a big hole spilling down the hill to a green that looks deceptively inviting from 220 yards.  The transition from the hill to the open green is intriguing, and the green looks to be very interesting, with a central hump that I imagine dictates where you want to place your second (left or right, to be on the same side of the hump as the hole).  I'm looking forward to playing that green.

[Brian_Sleeman]

I'm looking forward to playing that green.

Speaking of which, when are you coming back to town?  I imagine it's been a busy summer...

The course is a lot different than when you and I played, and the three greens that were closed at that time have come in nicely.  The 18th does appear "deceptively inviting," but in my rounds I've found it one of the most difficult to navigate.

[Matt_Ward]

The aspect that has left quite an impression on me as I spent time driving from Marquette to Akron for the NEC event is the sheer totality on what DeVries has done.

I am literally amazed on the sheer takeoff of a number of exciting public designs that often get little attention. Black Mesa is one of my personal favorite public courses in the USA -- I also am a big fan of what Jim Engh did in New Castle, CO with Lakota Canyon Ranch.

Greywalls provides a rich and deep array of strategic
choices -- partcularly around the green complexes. The only aspect I see that may be a bit -- and I underline the word bit -- of a lesser degree -- is the totality on the demands / strategic qualities one needs off the tee. There are just a few holes where the tee game elements are a bit lacking when compared to what you get in terms of the overall putting greens with their fascinating and rich complexities and differences in terms of shapes and pitches. The par-4 14th as John M alludes to is simply a masterpiece in 21st century design. It will tolerate nothing but your finest play -- think of it as the twin brother to what you see with the par-4 15th at TKC.

The Kingsley Club is quite rightly feasted because of the stellar front nine. However, the routing by DeVries and the sheer change of pace holes you encounter at Greywalls is IMHO just a bit more fun and architecturally just a tad better design wise. For those of you out there in cyperspace please don't think I have less of an opinion of The Kingsley Club -- I actually see the front nine at Greywalls as a supreme example in getting the most out of a difficult site and never having the slightest bit of a letdown in terms of hole quality.

I also see the par-4 9th as one of the finest -400 yard holes in the States. The walk from the tee to the green allows you to see the opening of a full panorama with Lake Superior in the distance. Assuming one can bypass the fairway bunker that hugs the preferred left side (a 260 yard carry from the tips) you are then faced with a dicey approach to a green that flows from right-to-left and from back-to-front. A grand finale to the outer half indeed.

If there are weaknesses with each I see the opening two holes on the back at TKC as being a bit less -- ditto the two holes that follow the sensational par-4 15th.

For Greywalls the ending hole left me scratching my head -- it is not a pushover by any means but the complexity and richness in the design details is a bit less than so many of the other holes you play.

Greywalls will quickly climb the poll of attention as golfers encounter what is arguably one of the few public courses where you can't wait to return and try your hand / luck again and again. No golfer playing either course will EVER SAY they were bored. On that point you can bet for sure.

When people talk about Rustic Canyon and Wild Horse -- two incredibly gifted layouts -- you will find Greywalls speeding by because the sheer totality of what is there is literally akin to warp drive in public golf design.

[Larry_Keltto]

How do the turf conditions compare at Greywalls and TKC?

I'll be playing TKC this coming week for the first time -- looking forward to it.

[RJ_Daley]

Larry, of course the turf at Greywalls will reflect a recent grow-in.  I would expect it to be somewhat sparse in spots, and greens possibly a bit grainy and not high density leaf shoots yet.  But, who knows... maybe it is an ideal grow-in.  

But, I would expect you'll see turf in its highest or best management practices condition at Kingsley matched to the season because they have one of the all-star superintendents there in Dan Lucas.

[Buck Wolter]

I wonder if Larry was getting at the issue of whether the UP has the same sand based soil that Western Michigan has. Does/will Greywalls play Firm and Fast?

[Larry_Keltto]

Buck, that's exactly what I was wondering -- I didn't state it very well. For me, sand-based soils count for a lot.

[Joe Hancock]

RE Turf conditions,

The main difference between the two will be the turf species. At Kingsley, the turf is fine fescues, excluding greens and tees. It plays very fast and requires less water and fertilizer. It wirks there because of the sandy soil and the low traffic volume.

At Greywalls, it is a bluegrass/ fescue combo, except greens and tees. The soil is quite sandy in most areas, so it can still be firmed up. Bluegrass generally requires more fertilizer and water. It was chosen due to anticipated higher traffic volumes. It holds up better than fescue, and is less costly to maintain than bentgrass.

Very few courses will play as fast and firm as Kingsley, but the intent at Greywalls is to keep it as fast and firm as possible.

Joe

[Brian_Sleeman]

Joe hit it on the head, the bluegrass was chosen because we get a ton of play over the course of the year.  But I can attest to Greywalls playing very firm and fast; in fact that's maybe the biggest thing most of our members have had to get used to - not the rock and bunkering so much as the fact that the ground game demands so much more attention.  

When you throw those conditions on top of the heaving, bubbling, and dramatic terrain it makes for some interesting and extremely fun plays.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Brian,

Do you find the bluegrass to be "sticky" in the approach areas? In other words, instead of skipping does the ball grab a bit when you try to run it onto the greens?

I've found that's the unfortunate tendency at Blackhawk GC in Edmonton. Another northern climate course that received heavy traffic, Blackhawk also features bluegrass fairways.  

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

Brian can give you a much more precise answer -- let me say from my visit and play of Greywalls -- that any approach that fails to be played in a top notch manner will bound away and away and rarely "stick" as your hopes for a good score drift further and further away from the intended target.

[Brian_Sleeman]

I haven't found that sticky tendency at all, hopefully that's not something we run into down the line.  I can tell you some members would definitely like that condition though...  

[Jeff_Mingay]

I recall talking with Mike about the grass selection for the fairways at Greywalls, but I can't remember what they eventually used?

I know there are some dwarf varieties out there now that can be cut pretty tight, for bluegrass; which is encouraging, because I think bluegrass fairways are a very good choice at lower budget facilities, and also in northern climates like Marquette and Edmonton.

[Brian_Sleeman]

I'd have to get the exact specs from Mike or from our superintendent Pete Chevrette.  Joe probably knows too.

[Joe Hancock]

Jeff, Brian,

I have the individual varieties list in my office, but it isn't that important to the discussion. There are many blues available now that can tolerate the low heights of cut. New cultivars are released every year. The National Turfgrass Evaluation Program (http://www.ntep.org/) rate all the commercial bred cultivars each year, broken down by region.

There are many factors that go into choice of turf used on each course. Many of those factors have been listed in this thread. Other factors include availability, price, vendor, etc. To some extent, each course ends up with a blend that is individual to the course, and it usually means some risk was taken in that it isn't necessarily tried and true.

Joe

ADDED: I found the species we considered for the Mines GC lurking on my computer. I think the varieties used at Greywalls are also part of this list, for those turfheads who care.

Blues:

Award
Rugby II
NuDestiny
Tsunami
Liberator
Midnight II

[John_Conley]

John M.:  Where the heck do you live?  The UP is so far from anything.  I grew up in Minnesota and didn't get there but once.

[Brian Cenci]

     I have played both and they are both drastically different just because of the types of land but similar in many ways as far as shot placement options and decisions.  Take #8 at Greywall for example which somewhat compares to I think it is #16 at Kingsley Club (long par 5).  #8 at Greywalls I am still unsure how to play.  It is a short par 4, 343 from the back tees, I think I now think the play is to take a short iron off the tee and leave yourself a mid to long iron into the green.  The hole drastically slopes from right to left and funnels everything from 150 to 50 yards out into 2 different collection areas.  I tried going with driver over the right side "greywall mounds" but still ended up in a bad area about 80 yards out at a collection area with a tough approach to an elevated green.  I tried taking a 2 iron down the right side and ended up in the same collection area.  This is similar to #16 at Kingsley where it slopes everything right to left off the drive to a bunch of pine trees in the fairway.  When I played it with a member he told me to lay up and not hit driver so i didn't end up in the trees.  I of course didn't listen and tried to bomb my driver over a right side valley wall and hope to kick over the trees which didn't happen.  
     So, both the same types of decisions to be made.  I really feel at both Greywalls and Kingsley club that you have more decisions and options to make than at most other clubs.  Almost reminiscent of Crystal Downs, which I have never played a course that requires more local knowledge because of these same types of "decisions" and "play options".
     #7 tee shot at Greywalls is similar.  Play it at the mound, go right, left....really a neat decision to make.
     I would say they are both equal as far as which I like more, with maybe a slight advantage to Greywalls because it is unique.

[Matt_Ward]

Let me offer the following comments / re: Greywalls. The opening hole at the course SIMPLY BLOWS AWAY others that are also par-5's that are the 1st hole.

Let me give a clear example for comparison purposes.

The 1st at Sand Hills a fine hole and a clearly quite fun to play. The 1st at Greywalls is warp drive beyond it IMHO.

When you stand on the 1st at Greywalls you see the ENTIRE panorama of the property plus the added bonus of Lake Superior in the background.

You also have a heaving fairway with oddles of contours and movement. The player has a number of clear options to address when assessing the tee shot.

The hole simply gets better as you progress to the green. The 2nd shot is dependent upon a number of factors -- the side of the fairway you are on -- the quaility of the lie / stand you have and how much risk you wish to handle with your play.

The green is simply the end of a glorious trek to a round that is just beginning. The fall-offs are entirely appropriate and I would say the best option is to play your second shot to be short if you one should opt to go at it with the second. Any push or pull near the green will mean a quick rebounding away and away from the intended target.

As a comparison the 1st at The Kingsley Club is also a very fine hole. The tee shot provides plenty of options as you see a huge fairway bunker complex in the near distance. The player has to make the choice on where to go and how to play it. No doubt it's very challenging but when compared to the 1st at Greywalls it's no contest in my book. Ditto with the remainder of the hole.

One of the more important aspects of Greywalls is the unique routing. No hole goes the same route. You are constantly moving in any number of directions -- thereby -- the golfer cannot hone in on any particular patterns or shot requirements.

[Andy Hughes]

Matt, is there any chance that someday you might buy yourself a digital camera??  

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

I have one but there have been posts made with photos on Greywalls already. In addition, I am not an accomplished photograher.

One other thing -- if you go to the site marquettegolfclub.com you can access photos from there as well. There is a link to Greywalls and a link to a specific photo album as well.

Check it out when time permits.

[Brian Cenci]

Matt - I would agree with your assessment on the first hole at Greywalls as I great opening hole.  I really wished the green was a little more accessable for a go at the green but man it is intimidating if you are offline with your approach shot.  No bunkering needed which makes it kind of neat.  As an opener very reminiscent of #1 at Crystal Downs as far as feel goes.

[Matt_Ward]

One of the things that may prove difficult for Greywalls is its location. When you cross the Mackinac Bridge from Lower Michigan to the UP -- you are still a solid three hours drive time from the course. The drive time from Detroit is no less than 7-8 hours.

I'd be curious to the thoughts of those attending the GCA event and how they feel it's location will impact, if anything at all, on its location.

Believe me -- getting to Sand Hills is like taking a short commute into NYC from Jersey!

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