One thing to get things going -- I believe the 1st at Greywalls is the superior opening hole to what you see with The Kingsley Club.

The views of Lake Superior in the background and the myriad of strategic options you get with the first in Marquette really makes you stand up and take notice for the joy ride you are about to encounter.

Simply a tour de force routing in some difficult terrain and the green sites are collectively some of the best you can play.

Matt --

I have played both and agree with your thought that they are very close in overall quality, even though the character of each course is quite different (because of the vastly different properties involved).

First, a disclosure: I have taken advantage of the amazing deal for Marquette's national membership. Marquette is a neat city that my family and I enjoy visiting. (It has the best playground I have ever seen.)

Each course shares the fascinating appeal of having the golfer leaving the 18th green wanting to proceed immediately to the 1st tee, as it takes many rounds to begin to "get" each course.  With each round you realize a new way to play one hole, etc., and that wants you to rush back out.  On each course you look forward to playing the next hole.

I agree that the 1st at Greywalls is a contender for the best three-shot opener I know.  The prospect from the tee wants you to play golf immediately, and the green is outstanding.

Other favorites (among many) at Greywalls include the 9th and 14th.  The approach to the latter with the angled green is superb.  The 14th will likely be a sleeper hole, as it may proveto be the hardest par on the course.

What may ultimately determine where Greywalls fits in the world golf picture is how holes 15-18 play.  After just a few rounds there (and then the 16th and 18th greens were closed), I can't say.  The 18th is a hole where you just need to forget about what par is and look at it as a big hole spilling down the hill to a green that looks deceptively inviting from 220 yards.  The transition from the hill to the open green is intriguing, and the green looks to be very interesting, with a central hump that I imagine dictates where you want to place your second (left or right, to be on the same side of the hump as the hole).  I'm looking forward to playing that green.

The aspect that has left quite an impression on me as I spent time driving from Marquette to Akron for the NEC event is the sheer totality on what DeVries has done.

I am literally amazed on the sheer takeoff of a number of exciting public designs that often get little attention. Black Mesa is one of my personal favorite public courses in the USA -- I also am a big fan of what Jim Engh did in New Castle, CO with Lakota Canyon Ranch.

Greywalls provides a rich and deep array of strategic
choices -- partcularly around the green complexes. The only aspect I see that may be a bit -- and I underline the word bit -- of a lesser degree -- is the totality on the demands / strategic qualities one needs off the tee. There are just a few holes where the tee game elements are a bit lacking when compared to what you get in terms of the overall putting greens with their fascinating and rich complexities and differences in terms of shapes and pitches. The par-4 14th as John M alludes to is simply a masterpiece in 21st century design. It will tolerate nothing but your finest play -- think of it as the twin brother to what you see with the par-4 15th at TKC.

The Kingsley Club is quite rightly feasted because of the stellar front nine. However, the routing by DeVries and the sheer change of pace holes you encounter at Greywalls is IMHO just a bit more fun and architecturally just a tad better design wise. For those of you out there in cyperspace please don't think I have less of an opinion of The Kingsley Club -- I actually see the front nine at Greywalls as a supreme example in getting the most out of a difficult site and never having the slightest bit of a letdown in terms of hole quality.

I also see the par-4 9th as one of the finest -400 yard holes in the States. The walk from the tee to the green allows you to see the opening of a full panorama with Lake Superior in the distance. Assuming one can bypass the fairway bunker that hugs the preferred left side (a 260 yard carry from the tips) you are then faced with a dicey approach to a green that flows from right-to-left and from back-to-front. A grand finale to the outer half indeed.

If there are weaknesses with each I see the opening two holes on the back at TKC as being a bit less -- ditto the two holes that follow the sensational par-4 15th.

For Greywalls the ending hole left me scratching my head -- it is not a pushover by any means but the complexity and richness in the design details is a bit less than so many of the other holes you play.

Greywalls will quickly climb the poll of attention as golfers encounter what is arguably one of the few public courses where you can't wait to return and try your hand / luck again and again. No golfer playing either course will EVER SAY they were bored. On that point you can bet for sure.

When people talk about Rustic Canyon and Wild Horse -- two incredibly gifted layouts -- you will find Greywalls speeding by because the sheer totality of what is there is literally akin to warp drive in public golf design.

Larry, of course the turf at Greywalls will reflect a recent grow-in.  I would expect it to be somewhat sparse in spots, and greens possibly a bit grainy and not high density leaf shoots yet.  But, who knows... maybe it is an ideal grow-in.  

But, I would expect you'll see turf in its highest or best management practices condition at Kingsley matched to the season because they have one of the all-star superintendents there in Dan Lucas.

Buck, that's exactly what I was wondering -- I didn't state it very well. For me, sand-based soils count for a lot.

Joe hit it on the head, the bluegrass was chosen because we get a ton of play over the course of the year.  But I can attest to Greywalls playing very firm and fast; in fact that's maybe the biggest thing most of our members have had to get used to - not the rock and bunkering so much as the fact that the ground game demands so much more attention.  

When you throw those conditions on top of the heaving, bubbling, and dramatic terrain it makes for some interesting and extremely fun plays.

Jeff:

Brian can give you a much more precise answer -- let me say from my visit and play of Greywalls -- that any approach that fails to be played in a top notch manner will bound away and away and rarely "stick" as your hopes for a good score drift further and further away from the intended target.

I recall talking with Mike about the grass selection for the fairways at Greywalls, but I can't remember what they eventually used?

I know there are some dwarf varieties out there now that can be cut pretty tight, for bluegrass; which is encouraging, because I think bluegrass fairways are a very good choice at lower budget facilities, and also in northern climates like Marquette and Edmonton.

Jeff, Brian,

I have the individual varieties list in my office, but it isn't that important to the discussion. There are many blues available now that can tolerate the low heights of cut. New cultivars are released every year. The National Turfgrass Evaluation Program (http://www.ntep.org/) rate all the commercial bred cultivars each year, broken down by region.

There are many factors that go into choice of turf used on each course. Many of those factors have been listed in this thread. Other factors include availability, price, vendor, etc. To some extent, each course ends up with a blend that is individual to the course, and it usually means some risk was taken in that it isn't necessarily tried and true.

Joe

ADDED: I found the species we considered for the Mines GC lurking on my computer. I think the varieties used at Greywalls are also part of this list, for those turfheads who care.

Blues:

Award
Rugby II
NuDestiny
Tsunami
Liberator
Midnight II

     I have played both and they are both drastically different just because of the types of land but similar in many ways as far as shot placement options and decisions.  Take #8 at Greywall for example which somewhat compares to I think it is #16 at Kingsley Club (long par 5).  #8 at Greywalls I am still unsure how to play.  It is a short par 4, 343 from the back tees, I think I now think the play is to take a short iron off the tee and leave yourself a mid to long iron into the green.  The hole drastically slopes from right to left and funnels everything from 150 to 50 yards out into 2 different collection areas.  I tried going with driver over the right side "greywall mounds" but still ended up in a bad area about 80 yards out at a collection area with a tough approach to an elevated green.  I tried taking a 2 iron down the right side and ended up in the same collection area.  This is similar to #16 at Kingsley where it slopes everything right to left off the drive to a bunch of pine trees in the fairway.  When I played it with a member he told me to lay up and not hit driver so i didn't end up in the trees.  I of course didn't listen and tried to bomb my driver over a right side valley wall and hope to kick over the trees which didn't happen.  
     So, both the same types of decisions to be made.  I really feel at both Greywalls and Kingsley club that you have more decisions and options to make than at most other clubs.  Almost reminiscent of Crystal Downs, which I have never played a course that requires more local knowledge because of these same types of "decisions" and "play options".
     #7 tee shot at Greywalls is similar.  Play it at the mound, go right, left....really a neat decision to make.
     I would say they are both equal as far as which I like more, with maybe a slight advantage to Greywalls because it is unique.

Matt, is there any chance that someday you might buy yourself a digital camera??  

Matt - I would agree with your assessment on the first hole at Greywalls as I great opening hole.  I really wished the green was a little more accessable for a go at the green but man it is intimidating if you are offline with your approach shot.  No bunkering needed which makes it kind of neat.  As an opener very reminiscent of #1 at Crystal Downs as far as feel goes.