[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Here is GM's Top 100 (US) list for those who have not seen it:

1.   Pine Valley
2.   Cypress Point
3.   Augusta National
4.   Shinnecock Hills
5.   Pebble Beach
6.   Sand Hills
7.   Merion
8.   Pacific Dunes
9.   Oakmont
10.   Pinehurst No. 2
11.   NGLA
12.   Seminole
13.   Crystal Downs
14.   SF GC
15.   Prarie Dunes
16.   Winged Foot (West)
17.   Fishers Island
18.   Oakland Hills (South)
19.   Bethpage (Black)
20.   Chicago GC
21.   The Country Cub
22.   Riviera
23.   Muirfield Village
24.   Oak Hill (East)
25.   Baltusrol (Lower)
26.   Olympic (Lake)
27.   Southern Hills
28.   Whistling Straits
29.   TPC @ Sawgrass
30.   Los Angeles CC (North)
31.   The Golf Club
32.   Medinah (No. 3)
33.   Kiawah Island (Ocean)
34.   Harbour Town
35.   Quaker Ridge
36.   Winged Foot (East)
37.   Inverness
38.   Maidstone
39.   Garden City GC
40.   Bandon Dunes
41.   Friar’s Head*
42.   Shoreacres
43.   Scioto
44.   Somerset Hills
45.   Congressional
46.   Shadow Creek
47.   Bandon Trails*
48.   Trump National (NJ)*
49.   Spyglass Hill
50.   Camargo
51.   Ocean Forest
52.   East Lake
53.   Wade Hampton
54.   Colonial CC
55.   Peachtree
56.   Cascades
57.   The Honors Course
58.   Valley Club of Montecito
59.   Yeamans Hall
60.   Torrey Pines (South)
61.   Cherry Hills
62.   Olympia Fields (North)
63.   Baltimore CC
64.   Briar’s Creek
65.   Plainfield
66.   World Woods (Pine Barrens)
67.   Hazeltine National
68.   Baltusrol (Upper)
69.   Piping Rock
70.   Myopia Hunt Club
71.   Pasatiempo
72.   Kittansett
73.   Trump International*
74.   Pete Dye GC
75.   Milwaukee CC
76.   Forest Highlands
77.   Yale
78.   Long Cove
79.   Desert Forest
80.   Double Eagle
81.   Newport
82.   Bel-Air
83.   The Creek
84.   Cascata*
85.   Black Diamond
86.   Holston Hills*
87.   Canterbury
88.   Firestone (South)
89.   Crooked Stick
90.   The Bridge*
91.   Ridgewood
92.   Calusa Pines*
93.   Bellerive
94.   Wannamoisett
95.   Sea Island (Seaside)
96.   Interlachen
97.   Atlantic GC
98.   Lehigh
99.   Salem CC
100. Blackwolf Run (River)

* = New course added to 2005 list

[Tony_Chapman]

Who cares about the list, I want to know who is drawing par-5s!!!!!!!

[Craig Van Egmond]

Wow, the Trumpster has not 1 but 2 courses on the list!!  Pretty impressive.  

Bandon Trails has only officially been open for 2 months and it already is on the list!!  (I know, people been playing that course for 6 months already, still pretty amazing)

Does Golf Mag list who fell out of the list to make room for the new ones?

[Pete Lavallee]

Got my issue of Golf yesterday and all I can say is: Torrey Pines South sandwiched betwen Yeamans Hall and Cherry Hills! Lucy, you got some splaining to do!

[Mike_Cirba]

I did say I believe that Trump National is in the Top Five courses in NJ.

However, I also believe Plainfield is the second best course in NJ and I'm perplexed at what both the Golf Digest and Golf Magazine raters are missing.

I also believe Friars Head is undervalued at #41.

[Phil Benedict]

Has Yale made the list in prior years?

[A_Clay_Man]

To see Black Diamond, and no Lawsonia, tells me that there are serious issues with all panelists.

[Mike_Cirba]

I also just noticed that Hidden Creek seems to be one of the casualties.  

[Scott_Burroughs]

For anyone who wants to find the casualties from the 2003 list, here ya go:

lynque

GOLF MAGAZINE's ranking of the top courses in the U.S. for 2003
By GARY GALYEAN
Contributing Writer, GOLF MAGAZINE


2003  2001
Rank  Rank  Course Name  Location  Architect(s)*  


1  1  Pine Valley  Clementon, NJ  Crump/Colt  
2  2  Cypress Point  Pebble Beach, CA  Mackenzie  
3  5  Shinnecock Hills  Southampton, NY  Flynn  
4  4  Augusta National  Augusta, GA  Mackenzie/Bobby Jones  
5  3  Pebble Beach  Pebble Beach, CA  Neville/Grant  
6  6  Pinehurst (No. 2)  Pinehurst, NC  D. Ross  
7  7  Sand Hills  Mullen, NE  Coore/Crenshaw  
8  8  Merion (East)  Ardmore, PA  H. Wilson  
9  9  Oakmont  Oakmont, PA  Fownes  
10  11  Winged Foot (West)  Mamaroneck, NY  Tillinghast  
11  17  Pacific Dunes  Bandon, OR  Doak  
12  14  National Golf Links of America  Southampton, NY  Macdonald  
13  10  Seminole  North Palm Beach, FL  D. Ross  
14  13  Prairie Dunes  Hutchinson, KS  Maxwell  
15  15  Crystal Downs  Frankfort, MI  Mackenzie/Maxwell  
16  16  Oakland Hills (South)  Bloomfield Hills, MI  D. Ross  
17  12  San Francisco  San Francisco, CA  Tillinghast  
18  18  Fishers Island  Fishers Island, NY  Raynor  
19  27  Bethpage (Black)  Farmingdale, NY  Tillinghast  
20  19  Chicago  Wheaton, IL  Macdonald  
21  21  The Country Club (Championship)  Brookline, MA  Campbell  
22  25  Riviera  Pacific Palisades, CA  Thomas/Bell 1926; T. Fazio  
23  24  Muirfield Village  Dublin, OH  Nicklaus/Muirhead  
24  20  Olympic (Lake)  San Francisco, CA  Reid  
25  26  Southern Hills  Tulsa, OK  Maxwell  
26  22  Oak Hill (East)  Rochester, NY  D. Ross  
27  23  Baltusrol (Lower)  Springfield, NJ  Tillinghast  
28  28  The Golf Club  New Albany, OH  P. Dye  
29  37  Shoreacres  Lake Bluff, IL  Raynor  
30  31  Medinah (No. 3)  Medinah, IL  Bendelow  
31  29  Whistling Straits (Straits)  Haven, WI  P. Dye  
32  33  Garden City  Garden City, NY  Emmet  
33  32  TPC at Sawgrass (Stadium)  Ponte Vedra Beach, FL  P. Dye  
34  38  Inverness  Toledo, OH  D. Ross  
35  35  Los Angeles (North)  Los Angeles, CA  Thomas  
36  39  Maidstone  East Hampton, NY  W. & J. Park  
37  36  Quaker Ridge  Scarsdale, NY  Tillinghast  
38  30  Camargo  Cincinnati, OH  Raynor  
39  34  Winged Foot (East)  Mamaroneck, NY  Tillinghast  
40  44  Harbour Town  Hilton Head Island, SC  P. Dye/Nicklaus  
41  47  Somerset Hills  Bernardsville, NJ  Tillinghast  
42  42  Scioto  Columbus, OH  D. Ross  
43  41  Bandon Dunes  Bandon, OR  Kidd  
44  65  Kiawah Island (Ocean)  Kiawah Island, SC  P. Dye  
45  43  Spyglass Hill  Pebble Beach, CA  R.T. Jones Sr.  
46  45  World Woods (Pine Barrens)  Brooksville, FL  T. Fazio  
47  46  Ocean Forest  Sea Island, GA  Rees Jones  
48  56  Valley Club of Montecito  Santa Barbara, CA  Mackenzie/Hunter  
49  55  Congressional (Blue)  Bethesda, MD  Emmet  
50  51  Peachtree  Atlanta, GA  R.T. Jones Sr./Bobby Jones  
51  52  Wade Hampton  Cashiers, NC  T. Fazio  
52  40  Shadow Creek  North Las Vegas, NV  T. Fazio  
53  50  Cherry Hills  Cherry Hills Village, CO  Flynn  
54  59  Baltimore (Five Farms East)  Lutherville, MD  Tillinghast  
55  67  Yeamans Hall  Hanahan, SC  Raynor  
56  49  Homestead (Cascades)  Hot Springs, VA  Flynn  
57  48  The Honors Course  Ooltewah, TN  P. Dye  
58  53  East Lake  Atlanta, GA  Bendelow  
59  58  Colonial  Fort Worth, TX  Bredemus  
60  75  Olympia Fields (North)  Olympia Fields, IL  W. Park  
61        Briar's Creek  Johns Island, SC  Rees Jones  
62  93  Piping Rock  Locust Valley, NY  Macdonald/Raynor  
63  70  Pete Dye Golf Club  Bridgeport, WV  P. Dye  
64  57  Double Eagle  Galena, OH  Weiskopf/Morrish  
65  81  Hazeltine  National Chaska, MN  R.T. Jones Sr.  
66  73  Plainfield  Plainfield, NJ  D. Ross  
67       Torrey Pines (South)  La Jolla, CA  Bell  
68  68  Long Cove  Hilton Head Island, SC  P. Dye  
69  87  The Course at Yale  New Haven, CT  Macdonald  
70  83  Myopia Hunt  South Hamilton, MA  Leeds  
71  79  Forest Highlands (Canyon)  Flagstaff, AZ  Weiskopf/Morrish  
72        Hidden Creek  Egg Harbor Township, NJ  Coore/Crenshaw  
73  72  Baltusrol (Upper)  Springfield, NJ  Tillinghast  
74  62  Canterbury  Cleveland, OH  Strong  
75  64  Wannamoisett  Rumford, RI  D. Ross  
76  60  Black Diamond (Quarry)  Lecanto, FL  T. Fazio  
77  76  The Dunes  New Buffalo, MI  Nugent  
78  77  Kittansett  Marion, MA  Hood  
79  95  Newport  Newport, RI  Davis  
80  78  The Creek  Locust Valley, NY  Macdonald/Raynor  
81  61  Interlachen  Edina, MN  Watson  
82  85  Desert Forest  Carefree, AZ  Lawrence  
83        Lehigh  Allentown, PA  Toomey/Flynn  
84  69  Pasatiempo  Santa Cruz, CA  Mackenzie  
85  74  Blackwolf Run (River)  Kohler, WI  P. Dye  
86  54  Nantucket  Siasconset, MA  Rees Jones  
87  63  Shoal Creek  Birmingham, AL  Nicklaus  
88  84  Crooked Stick  Carmel, IN  Dye  
89  86  Sea Island (Seaside)  St. Simons Island, GA  Colt/Alison 1928; Lee  
90        Mauna Kea  Kohala Coast, HI  R.T. Jones Sr.  
91  82  Firestone (South)  Akron, OH  R.T. Jones Sr.  
92  88  Laurel Valley  Ligonier, PA  D. Wilson  
93  94  Bel-Air  Los Angeles, CA  Thomas/Bell  
94        Ridgewood (West/East)  Paramus, NJ  Tillinghast  
95        Milwaukee  River Hills, WI  Colt/Alison  
96  99  Bellerive  Creve Coeur, MO  R.T. Jones Sr.  
97        Atlantic  Bridgehampton, NY  Rees Jones  
98        Galloway National  Galloway Township, NJ  T. Fazio  
99  96  Indianwood (Old)  Lake Orion, MI  Reid/Connellan  
100  71  Salem  Peabody, MA  D. Ross  

* Architect(s); Year opened for play; Redesign architect(s)  

[JSlonis]

Interesting to see Lehigh CC sneak in at #98.  While I love Lehigh, I would not rate it ahead of some other worthy Philly area courses:

Huntingdon Valley CC
Lancaster CC
Aronimink CC
Philadelphia CC

[Mike_Cirba]

Interesting to compare the GolfWeek Modern Listing to the new one by Golf Magazine.  

Golfweek Ranking           Golf Magazine Ranking
1) Sand Hills                 (6)
2) Pacific Dunes            (
3) Friars Head               (41)
4) Whistling Straits        (28)
5) Bandon Dunes           (40)
6) Pete Dye GC             (74)
7) The Golf Club            (31)
Muirfield Village         (23)
9) Shadow Creek           (46)
10) Honors Course         (57)
11) Kinloch                    
12) Wade Hampton        (53)
13) Sutton Bay
14) TPC Sawgrass         (29)
15) Cuscowilla
16) Spyglass Hill            (49)
17) Ocean Kiawah         (33)
18) Dallas National
19) Wolf Run
20) Blackwolf Run (River) (100)
21) Wild Horse
22) Kingsley Club
23) The Rim
24) Arcadia Bluffs
25) Harbour Town           (34)
26) World Woods (PB)     (66)
27) Paa-Ko Ridge
28) Castle Pines
29) Double Eagle            (80)
30) Karsten Creek
31) Sanctuary
32) Black Diamond Ranch (85)
33) Calusa Pines             (92)
34) Desert Forest           (79)
35) Long Cove               (78)
36) Hazeltine                 (67)
37) Mayacama  
38) Galloway National
39) Estancia
40) Forest Highlands
41) Victoria National
42) Hawks Ridge
43) Eugene
44) Lost Dunes
45) Olde Farm
46) Pumpkin Ridge (Witch Hollow)
47) Cog Hill #4
48) Princeville (Prince)
49) Hawk Tree
50) Black Mesa

Yet, others such as Trump International and The Bridge, which aren't even in the Golfweek Top 100 Modern, as well as Cascata (ranked 67 in Golfweek Modern) make the Golf Magazine list.

Methinks they need to do a little more travelling from the major population centers and popular resorts...

 

[Brian_Gracely]

apples to orange Mike, apples to oranges.  narrow your list down to 100 and then make a comparison.  

[Mike_Cirba]

apples to orange Mike, apples to oranges.  narrow your list down to 100 and then make a comparison.  

Brian,

I'm comparing the Top 50 Modern on the Golfweek listing to their relative placement to each other (or omission) on the Golf Magazine list.

How is that apples to oranges?

[Brian_Gracely]

Mike,

You took an entire chunk of a section of the GW list (specific timeframe) and compared it to where they fit in the complete GM list.  How can you think that is an apples to apples comparison?  

It's wonderful that GW takes the extra step to highlight 200 courses.  But unless everyone is listing a similar amount, then it's not going to be apples to apples.  GD to GM...ok.  NASDAQ to NYSE...not the same.  Get it?

[Ted Kramer]

I've only played 2 of the top 17.
And I haven't played Fishers . . .
Are there really 16 courses in the US better than Fishers?
I'd be surprised if the two I played were better than Fishers.
But like I said, I haven't played it . . .

-Ted

[Ted Kramer]

And Ridgewood at 91 seems undervalued to me.

-Ted

[Joel_Stewart]

Interesting to compare the GolfWeek Modern Listing to the new one by Golf Magazine.  

Mike:

I don't get the correlation at all between Golfweeks modern and the Golf magazine list?   I would like to see a comparison between Golf Digest and Golf Magazine.  

[Joel_Stewart]

Are there really 16 courses in the US better than Fishers?
I'd be surprised if the two I played were better than Fishers.

I'll steal a quote someone told me and use it in your context.  There are better courses than Fishers but none that are nicer.

[Mike_Cirba]

Joel/Brian;

What I was trying to point out by comparing the two lists is simply the omission of various courses from one to the other.  For instance, how can a Kinloch, or Kingsley Club, or Sutton Bay appear in the Top 10-25 modern on one list, yet nowhere on the other?

I think a few generalizations can be made.

1) The Golfweek list is more geographically diverse.
2) The Golf Magazine list is generally populated by bigger "name" architects
3) The Golf Magazine list courses are generally near the high population centers and traditionally popular resorts.

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

How do you know what courses GM would or would not include if they separated out old from new, like GW does?  How do you know where any of the courses you mention would fall in a GW list not so separated?

THAT is the problem with your comparison, and your generalizations - you compare results from two totally different methodologies.  

So that being said, I'd agree with each of your generalizations.  But what good are they?  They can each easily be explained by the methodology used.

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Because at some point, you have to assign a value to a course based on cumulative rankings and it either makes the list or it doesn't!

I mean, just on the face of it, Golf Magazine has listed probably 40 or so modern courses on their Top 100 (I actually didn't count them all).  

If they believe there are that many modern courses better than Kingsley, or Wild Horse, or Sutton Bay, or Kinloch, or Cuscowilla, or Dallas National, or Wolf Run, or Arcadia Bluff, then that says something, doesn't it?

If they include The Bridge and/or Trump International and Golfweek doesn't have them in their Top 100 Modern, that says something, as well.

I think the generalizations I made are generally true.  Are you saying that no meaning can be derived from a comparative assessment of which modern courses appear on the Golf Magazine listing, in what order, and which don't appear at all?

[Mike_Golden]

As much as I love Cypress Point, I have to place NGLA above it and certainly Pebble Beach.  If Cypress is #2, then NGLA is 1A.  For me, the shot quality at NGLA, the Redan, the Alps, and the way NGLA has stood the test of time make it my favorite course in the world (with Cypress and Bethpage Black co-#2's).

Just my humble opinion, of course.

[Brian_Gracely]

Mike Cirba,

I think you're right.  Your conclusions prove without a shadow of a doubt that groups of people have various opinions and that the rating process is essentially subjective and open to differing viewpoints.  

[Geoffrey Childs]

As much as I love Cypress Point, I have to place NGLA above it and certainly Pebble Beach.  If Cypress is #2, then NGLA is 1A.  For me, the shot quality at NGLA, the Redan, the Alps, and the way NGLA has stood the test of time make it my favorite course in the world (with Cypress and Bethpage Black co-#2's).

Just my humble opinion, of course.

        - I agree -

[Scott_Burroughs]

Someone on the "W 100" thread stated that they thought that GM has ~500 courses eligible for the World rankings, meaning that they don't really consider that large of a pool of courses to rate.  For the U.S. only, the pool would be smaller, likely ~400 (a guess).  It wouldn't surprise me that at least one of the courses Mike lists above and possibly other courses elsewhere on the GW lists aren't even on the GM list to rate.

GW has about 2000 courses eligible to rate for the U.S. alone.  Don't know about GD, but I'd bet it's at least that big.

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