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Chris Munoz

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Bayonne/Liberty National
« on: August 07, 2005, 07:27:06 PM »
Just wondering if anyone of you guys have visited theses two new courses being built in NJ.  One is a Eric Bergstol design and the other one is Cupp/Kite design.  Both with views of the NYC skyline.  I am just wondering how those two courses will work out and how they will play.....From what I heard, that Bayonne will be a better test of golf and more enjoyable.  I also overheard that Liberty National will host some kind of major in the future.  IDK if that is true.  

Muni
Christian C. Munoz
Assistant Superintendent Corales
PUNTACANA Resort & Club
www.puntacana.com

Steve Lapper

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Re:Bayonne/Liberty National
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2005, 08:06:10 PM »
While I've not visited both, I would easily subscribe to the thought that the Bergstol designed and built Bayonne GC will be superior to and more worthy an effort than Liberty National .

A recent Golf Inc. cover piece highlighted the fact that Paul Fireman (sp?), ex of Reebok, has spent at least $130 million on the course so far (making it perhaps the most expensive course ever built) and it's not even grown in!!! That same cover asks (BEGS) the question of just how (in the hell) it will make $$$.

Your casual, yet completely false, assertion that "it will host some kind of major in the future" is exactly the inane and stupid statement that all these new club owners make every time some of them spend ludicrous sums of $$ to satisfy their egos. A prime example of that is the two large egos that run the two private clubs near me...both have made claims they want to host a "major" and neither will get anywhere near it in the next 50 years. Instead, they will spend major sums to host PGA or LPGA events in the vain hope they'll be considered for a "major." Face it, only Herb Kohl's bold move to shoulder all the gate revenue minimums to the PGA got them to last year's PGA Championship. Herb had at least chosen the right path by hosting a Women's Open and a PGA Club Pro Championship during the preceding 5 years to earn some respect for hosting a scale event.

  Note that the USGA hasn't granted ANY new private course an Open in the last decade and has doled out future Opens for the next 7 years with a very well defined rotation.

   Liberty National and its bottomless budget may well try to buy themselves a PGA/LPGA/Champions Tour event...thats not hard and takes little more than a guaranee of pure dollars. But even then, those Tour stops don't go straight out to brand new courses, including those with views of the NYC harbor and the Statue of Liberty. Let's also not forget that this Cupp/Kite design may well be likely to suffer from it's own architect's reputation: dull and uninspiring....perfect for a PGA stop, off limits to any "major," EVER!
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Voytek Wilczak

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Re:Bayonne/Liberty National
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2005, 10:14:19 PM »
While I've not visited both, I would easily subscribe to the thought that the Bergstol designed and built Bayonne GC will be superior to and more worthy an effort than Liberty National ......

 Let's also not forget that this Cupp/Kite design may well be likely to suffer from it's own architect's reputation: dull and uninspiring....perfect for a PGA stop, off limits to any "major," EVER!

Amazing statements from a man who has "not visited both".

Mike Hendren

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Re:Bayonne/Liberty National
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2005, 10:29:34 PM »
Let's also not forget that this Cupp/Kite design may well be likely to suffer from it's own architect's reputation: dull and uninspiring....

Dull and uninspiring?  Please elaborate.

Thanks.
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Voytek Wilczak

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Re:Bayonne/Liberty National
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2005, 10:49:12 PM »
 I also overheard that Liberty National will host some kind of major in the future.  IDK if that is true.  

Muni

Adrian Davies, Director of golf development at LNGC told me that the "major" idea is for LNGC to host the 2016 PGA - on the 100th anniversary of PGA founding in NYC.

PGA and USGA were involved in LNGC design from the viewpoint of "major" requirements. Length - 7,400 yard par 70 seems to be one of them.

Voytek Wilczak

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Re:Bayonne/Liberty National
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2005, 11:05:48 PM »
just how (in the hell) it will make $$$.


http://www.appliedco.com/aboutUs/pipeline/libertyResidences.shtml

Condominiums from $2 million to $6 million, projected.

Initiation deposits for LNGC $500,000 for individuals, $750,000 for corporations.

Sounds crazy, I know, but I would not bet against Paul Fireman.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Bayonne/Liberty National
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2005, 11:24:13 PM »
Paul Fireman's stock in Reebok is worth more than 800M in the adidas takeover deal. He has "deep pockets."
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Cliff Hamm

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Steve Lapper

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Re:Bayonne/Liberty National
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2005, 05:53:26 AM »
While I've not visited both, I would easily subscribe to the thought that the Bergstol designed and built Bayonne GC will be superior to and more worthy an effort than Liberty National ......

 Let's also not forget that this Cupp/Kite design may well be likely to suffer from it's own architect's reputation: dull and uninspiring....perfect for a PGA stop, off limits to any "major," EVER!

Amazing statements from a man who has "not visited both".


Voytek, et.al.,

     As I said, I HAVE NOT VISITED THE LN COURSE (but did see and walk part of the property prior to construction).  I have seen and played MANY of Eric Bergstol's projects and finished products. He knows what he is doing and has both the vision and the resources to create something very very good.

Perhaps Cupp/Kite will as well, however, they haven't produced anything that I know of that would be described as exciting and inspiring. Can any of you tell me what they have done that earns that description??

Other than its views and "blimp shots (according to Mr. Kite)" it is mostly another enormously expensive, mounded from scratch, attempt to make a modern classic. Other than Shadow Creek and Whistling Straits, has anyone else other than Tom Fazio & Pete Dye (both seasoned creators and shapers from flat/nondescript/barren wasteland sites) produced ANYTHING so dramatic, creative or successful!!!

The line (from their Dir. of Golf) about getting "invovlvement" from the PGA and USGA is hilarious.  ::)

For the record, I will be building a course (a Muni/Public Fee not too far away, with GCA's own Kelly Blake Moran) and we too have "involvement" from the USGA & PGA.....we called their headquaters and asked them how long does the course need to be to host a "major" by 2015 and were told at least 8500 yds!! ;)...so we decided to be in the hunt for the mini-minors (the GCA Open in 2010) and will only tip out at 7050yds!!! We'll also move about as much total dirt as they will have moved on 1-2 holes. :o

It appears that Voytek may indeed have something at stake here, and perhaps might be attached to this project.....do you??? Have you visited both, either one??? Have you played other Cupp/Kites or any Bergstol projects?

As I said before, Paul Fireman does indeed have bottomless pockets and the $$ for the course development is certainly flowing, yet the associated RE deal (that the course and site depends on to make $$) is one that is fraught with market and price risk that many very savvy local NJ RE developers & investors tell me is a far bet from any sure thing (several passed early on when the costs soared into a return basis south of 20% and the Applied Co. founder was indicted and convicted on bribery charges). That said, I won't bet against the course being sited dramatically, the deep pockets of Fireman, or the amount of hype and flash increasing about it as it nears opening.

As I said before, LN will likely go to the PGA and/or USGA and try to host some events (not unlike what Herb Kohler did) and will probably succeed in getting something, but inorder to get a "major" a course needs some history of competitive test, or has that qualification gone out the door these days as well?

Finally, let's not forget the Operating-nearby Coiffed One" and his blatant $$ throw for a major....by 2016, he'll own most of the free world, will have fired 1/3 of it's denizens and told us that he has the 5 best ranked courses throughout the world. By then, some architectually named GCA poster(s) will have been appointed director of golf ratings and access for the Donald and will share with the world his secrets for hustling entry to every place every time....powerful force to be reckoned with as he swoops down on LN to declare it not Donald-worthy!!
« Last Edit: August 08, 2005, 05:57:17 AM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Voytek Wilczak

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Re:Bayonne/Liberty National
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2005, 06:44:57 AM »
While I've not visited both, I would easily subscribe to the thought that the Bergstol designed and built Bayonne GC will be superior to and more worthy an effort than Liberty National ......

 Let's also not forget that this Cupp/Kite design may well be likely to suffer from it's own architect's reputation: dull and uninspiring....perfect for a PGA stop, off limits to any "major," EVER!

Amazing statements from a man who has "not visited both".

It appears that Voytek may indeed have something at stake here, and perhaps might be attached to this project.....do you??? Have you visited both, either one??? Have you played other Cupp/Kites or any Bergstol projects?


I am just a homer - LNGC is being built in JC where I live and I've been following its development since the beginning. Someone dropping $130 million ($150M now???) to build a golf course there is pretty astounding, to say the least.  Barry went to jail for (among other things) paying bribes to re-route State Highway 190 (Caven Point Road) to accomodate the golf course. Talk about expensive routing... ;)


I walked the LNGC site many times (sometimes sneaking in, sometimes invited). Never walked the Bayonne site, but have seen the huge mounds, reminiscent of Ballybunion. From Bergstol, I played Pine Hill, Pine Barrens and NJ National. Have not played anything by Cupp/Kite.

Having said all that, I think it is too early to judge the two courses and LNGC's chances of landing the 2016 PGA. As I said - I would not sell Fireman short (anybody who did just got slaughtered on the Adidas deal).
« Last Edit: August 08, 2005, 08:01:31 AM by Voytek Wilczak »

Voytek Wilczak

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Re:Bayonne/Liberty National
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2005, 08:00:23 AM »
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/08/sports/golf/08course.html

I am not sure I like the author's last name... ;)

By DAMON HACK
Published: August 8, 2005
A thousand yards from the Statue of Liberty and steps from the Hudson River is a strip of land that once lay dying on the shores of Jersey City. Petroleum and waste snaked through its underbelly, rendering the land an eyesore.

"Awful," the professional golfer Tom Kite said recently, seated where ruin and decay once reigned. "It was a terrible piece of property. Flat as a table, ugly, abused and mistreated. But what it had was location, location, location."

From that cavity, the lush and very private Liberty National Golf Club has sprouted across from the Manhattan skyline. This $150 million project by Paul B. Fireman, the property's owner and the chief executive of Reebok; his son Dan; and the golf-design tandem of Kite and Bob Cupp is creating a buzz less than a year before the first players tee off.

The club is set to open July 4, 2006, with a founding membership that includes the former New York mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani and the New England Patriots' owner, Robert K. Kraft. And already the course is anticipated to be a one-of-a-kind experience that may one day challenge courses like Shinnecock Hills on Long Island and Baltusrol Golf Club in Springfield, N.J., site of this week's P.G.A. Championship, as a host for golf's most prestigious tournaments.

Built on 160 acres and covering 4,000 feet of waterfront, the course stretches 7,400 yards from the back tees, with small rivers running through it and a $1 million cart path built with Belgian stones.

The clubhouse will feature a menu from the restaurateur Tom Colicchio of Gramercy Tavern and Craft. The course will offer a 15-minute luxury yacht service from Manhattan and, for those with quicker needs, a helipad.

Each member will have a custom-made set of clubs that will always be available at the course, a kind of thank-you gift for joining a club with an initiation fee of around $500,000.

But what separates it, members say, is the view from the ground, a vista that no parkland course or ocean links can claim.

"There is nothing more dramatic than lower New York Harbor, the Empire State Building and the shape of the Verrazano Bridge," said the founding member Kenneth G. Langone, the chief executive of the securities firm Invemed Associates and former director of the New York Stock Exchange. "Can you imagine having that view as the last shot you see on the last hole of a major tournament?"

Kite, when asked if he felt the course could stand up to the demands of a major championship, said Liberty National qualified on several fronts.

"It has plenty of teeth," he said. "It's all you want. It also lends itself to do great things on it, like the blimp shots you see at a major championship, the pan-in, pan-out shots at Pebble Beach."

But Kite, the 1992 United States Open champion and former Ryder Cup captain, said it could take time.

"There is no way you can shortcut history," he said. "You have to build it. Obviously, we feel we can make it happen."

The New York area has been awarded several major golf events in recent years, including the 2002 United States Open at Bethpage Black, the 2004 United States Open at Shinnecock Hills and this year's P.G.A. Championship at Baltusrol. Winged Foot Golf Club in Mamaroneck, N.Y., will play host to the United States Open in 2006, and Bethpage Black will welcome it again in 2009.

The competition is fierce for these events, as it is for the international Ryder Cup and Presidents Cup competitions.

The United States Golf Association, for example, which has its United States Open sites scheduled through 2012, receives invitations from courses from around the country. The association chooses several to examine and considers space for grandstands, concessions and merchandise tents, as well as a city's hotel space, parking and security.

The Presidents Cup, which will be contested in September at Robert Trent Jones Golf Club in Lake Manassas, Va., evaluates similar factors as well as others, including the weather, the amount of daylight, the roads and the city's infrastructure, said George Burger, the general chairman of the Presidents Cup.

"It's very similar to getting a political convention in your city, or a Super Bowl, and it's a distant cousin to an Olympic bid," he said.

But the golf course itself is crucial. And while Liberty National has yet to open, it has built-in qualities that may already make it a contender for golf's marquee events, Burger said.

"It's the credibility of the architects, the credibility of the membership and the credibility of the site itself," Burger said. "When you get that good of a design, a great property and good members, those are the new courses that will be contenders for majors. The only thing it lacks is history. But given the site, that may be something that will get it over the hump."

Billy Getty, a founding member who has started his own company specializing in golf course development, said of Liberty National: "There are only so many golf courses that if you walk to the middle of it blindfolded you'd immediately know where you are. Being able to use the Statue of Liberty as alignment is incredible, but also, since 9/11, things resonate emotionally more than they did. I don't think anyone will escape the butterflies in their belly seeing the Statue of Liberty and the replacement for the towers being erected."

Fireman, who opened the private course Willowbend on Cape Cod in 1993, has been involved in the Liberty National project for more than five years, from the property's filthiest state to its shiniest.

"We cleaned it up spotless, and it required a lot of money," Fireman said. "I'm sure everybody who builds a golf course and spends a lot of money thinks something special will happen to it. I'm looking to have a good experience for the membership and the people that visit. With New York City, you can't get a more dramatic picture. I think history will find its way."


Steve Lapper

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Re:Bayonne/Liberty National
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2005, 09:27:19 AM »
While I've not visited both, I would easily subscribe to the thought that the Bergstol designed and built Bayonne GC will be superior to and more worthy an effort than Liberty National ......

 Let's also not forget that this Cupp/Kite design may well be likely to suffer from it's own architect's reputation: dull and uninspiring....perfect for a PGA stop, off limits to any "major," EVER!

Amazing statements from a man who has "not visited both".

It appears that Voytek may indeed have something at stake here, and perhaps might be attached to this project.....do you??? Have you visited both, either one??? Have you played other Cupp/Kites or any Bergstol projects?


I am just a homer - LNGC is being built in JC where I live and I've been following its development since the beginning. Someone dropping $130 million ($150M now???) to build a golf course there is pretty astounding, to say the least.  Barry went to jail for (among other things) paying bribes to re-route State Highway 190 (Caven Point Road) to accomodate the golf course. Talk about expensive routing... ;)


I walked the LNGC site many times (sometimes sneaking in, sometimes invited). Never walked the Bayonne site, but have seen the huge mounds, reminiscent of Ballybunion. From Bergstol, I played Pine Hill, Pine Barrens and NJ National. Have not played anything by Cupp/Kite.

Having said all that, I think it is too early to judge the two courses and LNGC's chances of landing the 2016 PGA. As I said - I would not sell Fireman short (anybody who did just got slaughtered on the Adidas deal).


Fair enough....but I still think any talk of a PGA Championship is premature and no better than wildly speculative. I don't sell Fireman short at all...I've dealt with he and Bob Kraft in business before and they both are quite formidable and smart...just not a buyer of Cupp/Kite and the whole premise of hype and hooplah. ;D....You'll be more than welcome at our under-hyped and modest public course in Old Bridge!

S
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Mike Hendren

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Re:Bayonne/Liberty National
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2005, 09:35:19 AM »
Perhaps Cupp/Kite will as well, however, they haven't produced anything that I know of that would be described as exciting and inspiring. Can any of you tell me what they have done that earns that description??

Neither I nor anyone else opined that Cupp/Kite produce exciting and inspiring golf courses.  Therefore, I see no need to answer your deflective question.  Don't punt the ball until you've at least tried to get the first down.

Which is it:  They have a reputation for dull and uninspired work, or you don't know of any exciting and inspiring work they've done?

Please note I'm not qualified to disagree, though I am a member of a club that has 36 holes designed by Cupp/Kite. I'd just like to see some elaboration.  No big whoop.

Mike  
« Last Edit: August 08, 2005, 09:36:18 AM by Bogey_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Voytek Wilczak

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Re:Bayonne/Liberty National
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2005, 09:51:39 AM »
Isn't Muirfield Village Cupp's work (under Nicklaus' shingle)?

Never played it, but looks tremendous (exciting, inspiring) on Teevee.

SB

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Re:Bayonne/Liberty National
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2005, 10:52:49 AM »
There are quite a few people, particularly in Georgia, who think Bob Cupp does very great work.  Lets see:

Beacon Hall is one of the top 5 or 10 courses in all of Canada
Pumpkin Ridge and Old Waverly have been in the top 100 here
Settindown Creek and Hawks Ridge, and Reynolds are outstanding for those who have played

I'm not sure what he did under Nicklaus, but hell, he was the lead designer for a long time.  I'm sorry if he doesn't always use wispy edged bunkers, but I have no qualms with Cupp.

At least his courses have a track record for hosting major events.  Also, Liberty National has been in planning since around '96.  Should the developer dump his designer for whoever's hot?  Cupp was hot at the time.

Regarding cost, the course won't justify the cost.  But, if you're selling million dollar condos, and your option is an environmentally contaminated piece of ground or an expensive golf course, you can spend a lot on the golf course to justify it.

Regarding Bayonne, the only concern I have with the property was the size.  I believe the total site was around 120 acres, but that went down because you needed to built the course up something like 60 feet to cap the site.  Also take away some land to build the large dunes planned for the site, a berm to hide the industrial land, and waterfront access for a park, and we figured you actually only had around 100 or so acres for the whole shootin match.  While you can build a course on a site that small, if we're taking bets on which course will be better (having seen neither) my bet is on LN.

Steve, glad to hear Old Bridge is off the ground.  It should work out well.

Voytek Wilczak

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Re:Bayonne/Liberty National
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2005, 02:48:57 PM »
Quote

You'll be more than welcome at our under-hyped and modest public course in Old Bridge!

S
Quote

I'll be delighted to visit Old Bridge. Hunterdon County and its environs were my old stomping grounds - I played every muni there when I worked in Somerville.

I love Jersey golf - the good, the bad and the ugly. :D

Matt_Ward

Re:Bayonne/Liberty National
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2005, 03:31:17 PM »
Gents:

Might it be a bit more sensible -- forget about using the word "fair" if people would refrain from making long run predictions on the merits of a course(s0 that has not opened yet and therefore can't be played for an actual review.

The pre-spin demonstrates plenty of things -- but firsthand accounts are lacking and therefore nothing more than posturing and conjecture.

I intend to walk the property of Bayonne and hopefully Liberty National in the next 7-10 days but even with that I won't even begin to offer any real analysis / comments until I can play both. Is it too much to ask that others follow the same routine?

Andy Doyle

Re:Bayonne/Liberty National
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2005, 03:41:35 PM »
There are quite a few people, particularly in Georgia, who think Bob Cupp does very great work.  Lets see:

Settindown Creek and Hawks Ridge, and Reynolds are outstanding for those who have played

Add in the renovation of Druid Hills Golf Club - count me in as one who thinks Cupp has done some pretty good work down here.

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