[Gib_Papazian]

To continue Dr. McBride's discussion on the Redan at North Berwick, I was disappointed at the horrible degeneration of the once fearsome front-left *Redan Bunker.*

The base of sand is now an absurdly narrow strip, surrounded by lumpy, grown-in meadow grasses. The outline of the original perimeter is absolutely clear because the landforms are still intact.

It looks amateurish and awful . . . It had been 10 long years since my last visit and it has even shrunk since then.

Knowing David Huish - Head Pro - has been there for decades and is something of an icon in Fife, I asked him his thoughts on the Redan bunker and its obvious degeneration.

He patiently explained that it has "always been that way from the beginning. I have been here for 38 years."

Mr. Huish went on to tell me that he does everything he can to make sure the West Links is kept as authentic as possible and that my memory must be playing tricks. It is exactly as it was built.

Scots are stubborn . . . . I live with one . . . . so the Redhead and I wandered upstairs in the clubhouse for an adult beverage. We happened across the new club secretary - a fine English gentlemen who had only been at his new post for a few weeks.

He pulled up a chair with a pint and of course, the subject turned to the Redan. I gave him my thoughts and fessed up that - although I did not have the temerity to argue with David Huish - I had edited a book with an entire chapter on the Redan. . . . . historical pictures don't lie.

So, the great Bahto sent me off one of the original photos - what a monster that was! I forwarded it onto the club . . . . .

It has been sent to the Green Chairman for consideration and some discussion with David Huish . . . . .

We shall see what is more important, ego or restoration accuracy.

[Bill_McBride]

Gib and Sean, the bunker may have "degenerated," but it is still fearsome, the hillside makes it so deep any shot from its depths is blind.  Even in its current state, it is to be avoided and therefore makes the strategy on the hole.  IMHO of course.

Sean, did you see my Pennard report?  It's pretty far down on page 2 at this point.  

[Mike Hendren]

I'm with Gib.  The trench bunker fronting the 17th is  more fearsome.  

[Jonathan Cummingham]

I played it back in 1998.  As my memory recalls it was a huge bunker?  Can you post pic's or tell me where I can find old photo's in a book?  I loved the course so much, I played it twice.  Which was quite an achivement considering I got on the trian in Troon, off in Glasgow, walked across town to the other station.  Then took the train to North Berwick.  All this while dressed in my best suit and tie with the clubs on one shoulder.  Then back home for work the next day.

[paul cowley]

JLC....good man.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Gib, We need to get you out of Nocal more often. Great work and please continue to preach the gospel. I agree with you 100%.

[Mike Hendren]

I played it back in 1998.  As my memory recalls it was a huge bunker?  Can you post pic's or tell me where I can find old photo's in a book?  I loved the course so much, I played it twice.  Which was quite an achivement considering I got on the trian in Troon, off in Glasgow, walked across town to the other station.  Then took the train to North Berwick.  All this while dressed in my best suit and tie with the clubs on one shoulder.  Then back home for work the next day.

JLC,

There is a great photograph of The Redan opposite page 76 of Robert Hunter's excellent book "The Links."  Vertical sleepers appproximately 6 feet tall (judging by a man clinging thereto) are flush against the putting surface.  

Perhaps someone will scan the photograph onto this thread.

Mike

[les_claytor]

Go get 'um Gib............

I have some good pictures and sketches circa 1993.  The severity of the greenside bunkers were definitely there back then and are balanced by the relatively flat back left chipping area.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Gib,

My money's on EGO.  

[Jonathan Cummings]

walked across town to the other station.  Then took the train to North Berwick.  All this while dressed in my best suit and tie with the clubs on one shoulder.  Then back home for work the next day.

The hell with a picture of the Redan bunker, I want to see a picture of JLC making this walk!

JC

[Yannick Pilon]

Was there two weeks ago.

The bunker is still fearsome... but it also seemed a bit on the small side, considering its role on the strategy of the hole. I have not seen the old photos of it, but it could certainly be a bit larger and even more fearsome, IMHO.

[Andy Levett]

The pic in Hunter's book does look good (I'll try to scan it tonight if no-one beats me to it). But I bet they got fed up with sand blowing out of it all over the place. Could be why it was changed.

[Gib_Papazian]

Thanks Andy, I lack the technical acumen to do anything with a computer but run a Word Perfect program. I eve have trouble signing onto this website half the time.

[Brian Phillips]

Sketch and pic of hole from Hazards - Alec Bauer

[Mike_Cirba]

Wee Ben Sayers looks like he's stuck in there like a baby trying to get out of the playpen!  

Is the face of the bunker still maintained with sleepers?

[Mike Hendren]

Well done, Brian.  That's the pic I referred to but I had no idea that was Ben Sayers!  Six feet was a good guess.  Thanks.

[Mike Hendren]

Aside:  Don't the 4th and 15th basically share the same large teeing ground?  If so did the 4th once play well over 200 yards?

[Brian Phillips]

Mike,

I am not sure but I think the 4th used to be a short Par 4 but i might be wrong....

Brian

[Gib_Papazian]

Gentlemen,

I am certainly not suggesting that Sleepers be reinstalled - it would be a departure from the rest of the golf course.

However, they need to understand the importance of being faithful to the original dimensions of the most important hole on the golf course.

The strategic geometry would not *really* change, although with a wind in your face, the bunker becomes far more foreboding. Part of the genius of the hole is the psychological terror nibbling in the back of your mind as you take the club back . . . .  

[THuckaby2]

Well said, oh wise one.  And while some terror does exist today, it's not because of what's short, but rather what's long... going over that green is damn near certain double.  Short?  The way it is today, it causes no trembling.

And that ain't right.

[Andy Levett]

Nice one Brian – I’ve right-clicked-and-nicked that  Bauer sketch. I’d uploaded my Redan snaps  so may as well post them anyway.
This is the grass/sand combo bunker in August 2004 from an angle further right. You can just see the cleft beneath which is the sand.


Whatever you think of the bunker it is, and was (?) unseen from the tee. This is the view you get at 5’8”:


From casual Googling the military history I think it’s this ‘outer defence’ (the bunkers with ‘face 7ft high’ on the Bauer plan) that got the hole the name Redan. Ironic, as the short bunkers seen from the tee above shouldn’t really affect the play of the hole today (and are they regarded as an essential element of US Redans?)

Back in the day the Redan must have been quite an obstacle.  Deep enough for a child to hide in (She did. Completely invisible if you weren’t standing on the edge. Oh, how we laughed.). Looking back to the tee.


Once you get there the subtle slopes could be tricky but I thought  the greens were very slow. Bet they get them running quick for the big members’ comps though.

[Gib_Papazian]

Andy,
Your first photo - with the *cleft* - perfectly illustrates the hideousness of the degeneration.

Did you take photo of the inside dimensions of the bunker?

[Bill_McBride]

Huck, I'm not sure over the green at the Redan is death.  My brother went over last year when we played there, and had a fairly simple chip back up to the hole.  Maybe there is some ghastly bunker that he avoided, but I thought it to be fairly wide open.

[THuckaby2]

Bill:

Well I haven't been there in nearly three years now.. so the memory is fading sadly.  I just do remember if one goes long, you CAN end up with a decent pitch back, if you get lucky (ie don't go TOO long, over the farthest bank... My match play opponent one time went over the farthest bank and it took him three to get back to the green.  This was a really good player, also.

I guess it's moot anyway... my point is more that coming up short holds no terrors today... at least compared to what it was (see that photo!).

TH

[Bill_McBride]

I have to disagree that no terrors exist today.  It may not be the 6' deep timbered monster of old, but you still don't want to be down in that bunker!  It is still most of 6' up to the putting surface, just not as fearsomely as in the past.

And you're right, my brother wasn't ten feet behind the green, in a relatively flat area with a pretty routine chip back up the hill.  He made three.

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