[George Pazin]

I recently had the good fortune of teeing it up with a couple of our Pensacola posters, the esteemed Messrs. McBride and Golden. We played a course known as Solutia Golf Club, which was a wonderful surprise. The terrain was rolling - in Florida! - and the course was very entertaining.

But the most intriguing thing to me were the greensites. Most were built up, and featured a good bit of both pitch and contour, and were generally crowned, running off in all directions. This made play on a course that appeared fairly simple very interesting. And, most importantly for me, it made the course interesting while very playable.

As I thought about it later, it struck me that these types of greens are almost ideal from a playability aspect - they are difficult to score well on, without exacting play, but they are still very playable for the lesser golfer (otherwise known as me). I know that two of the tournament sites in recent years that I have most enjoyed on TV are #2 and the Fazio course at Mirasol. I haven't had the pleasure of playing either of these, but I think they appeared similar in concept - difficult for the good player to go low, yet very playable - ie minimal lost balls and penalty strokes - for the handicap golfer.

So why don't we see more of these types of greens? Is it because, contrary to Mackenzie's philosophy of look hard, play easy, they are look easy, play hard?

Much like the desire to dumb down contour and pitch in favor of flat but speedy, is this a case of the better player preferring something that looks hard (to impress his buddies), but plays easier (to sooth his fragile ego).

Is this Mackenzie's biggest flaw?

-----

As an aside, it is a true testimony to the mental strength of Mike Golden that he was able to scrap out a half in our match, paired with me against Bill and his son. We played the first 6 holes in some bizarre alternate shot format, and let me just say that if you truly wish to test the mental fortitude of any golfer, you simply have him play my drives. Well done, Mike, and thanks for having us at your club.

[THuckaby2]

George - stories of your match have reached the west coast already... Mr. McBride the elder has been telling stories of that "Golden" day...

Now as to your question:  I don't think we see that many crowned greens because they are relatively more difficult to maintain than greens with little or no falloffs... aren't they?  And aren't they relatively more difficult and/or expensive to build, requiring more earth-moving in darn near all instances?

As for how they play, well it just comes down to perception.  They look hard for the better player because he's used to having his shot results be more predictable - that is, normally the ball will stay relatively close to where he hits it, and he hits it where he wants to most of the time.  Crowned greens add this variable of relatively "good" shots yielding results that are wildly worse than what he's used to... and then put more demands on his short game... so it throws him off.  He's used to getting shots up and down from close to the green, and he knows it won't be so easy on crowns...

For the lesser player, they don't look hard because the penalty is not definite - shots that make him tremble are shots over water or other hazards, where the penalty is immediate and definite.  Crowns don't face him as there is no definite nor immediate penalty.  He normally doesn't get up and down anyway, so pitching up a crown is no big deal... his expecation is 3 or 4 shots, not 2.

So this is generally going to come down to how one plays, and how one feels about the game... I guess I'd qualify as a "better player", so when I see crowns I do indeed tremble a bit.  I enjoy them, but I expect to see some crooked numbers.  I'm not sure I'd want them as a steady diet... but who knows, it might end up being fun.

One thing's for sure:  I think the golf world is better off with these as the exception rather than the norm.  They're cooler that way... and well... these kind of greens don't exactly elicit fast play.

TH

[George Pazin]

Huck -

What do you know, you're a pencil and card guy?

(Welcome back, btw, I haven't seen you post in a while.)

I can't speak as to the construction or maintenance costs - though I can observe that Solutia is a wonderfully underpriced course/club - but the rest of what you said just supports my point! Crowned greens are tough for good golfers and relatively less painful for lesser golfers. That's ideal in my book.

Don't misunderstand me - I not trying to advocate a course like Shivas accuses Dave M of wanting, that is, a course that brings the better golfer back to the lesser golfer and places luck at a premium (that's not what I think Dave M wants, incidentally, but that's another thread for another day).

A course like this will still be tough for a lesser golfer to score on, but I truly believe the biggest annoyances for lesser golfers are losing balls and taking penalty strokes. An extra putt or chip is far less painful than digging back into the bag, yet again.

P.S. Sorry to hear news of our match made it to the West Coast - hopefully I'm not banned anywhere I'm still hoping to play.

[THuckaby2]

George - I was just "fleshing out" your point as to the effects of crowned greens.  I fully agree about the conclusions... I was just kinda thinking out loud as to WHY it works out that way.

In any case, bottom line is you are dead right on, hit the nail on the head when you say:

"A course like this will still be tough for a lesser golfer to score on, but I truly believe the biggest annoyances for lesser golfers are losing balls and taking penalty strokes. An extra putt or chip is far less painful than digging back into the bag, yet again.

Thus in the end, a course with these is better for everyone than a penal course exacting many penalty shots, that's for sure.

I just still do think we don't see more of these because they are expensive to build and maintain, relatively.  I could be wrong there.  There also does exist a definite perception among golfers good and bad that this is a form of "mickey mouse" golf... I'm not saying I think that way - I don't - but I sure do know a lot of very astute golfers who do....

As for stories of your match, well they were mostly about Golden heroics.  Bill was careful not to mention much about why such were required.

 

[Kris Kerr]

George: "A course like this will still be tough for a lesser golfer to score on, but I truly believe the biggest annoyances for lesser golfers are losing balls and taking penalty strokes. An extra putt or chip is far less painful than digging back into the bag, yet again."

As a 'lesser' golfer as you put it, I would far rather lose a ball than see a putt go rolling off the back of a crowned green...an occurrence I've recently endured...although if there's no challenge there's less satisfaction in achievement - for all.

From a design point of view crowned greens can look a little less 'natural' in their surroundings than others...

Still I reckon too that they have their place.

[Mike_Golden]

George, Huck:

My 'heroics' weren't all that much, the McBrides just missed some putts coming in.   :oThe alternate shot format, by the way, was a Chapman (at Ace's suggestion).  A more impressive triumph was my singles match with David McBride two days later-he's an 8 and we went back and forth all day, with David halving the match with birdie on #17 before I hit two good shots on #18 (a tough finisher, 410 yards uphill with another crowned, push up green) and closed him out.

I exchanged emails with Bill Amick, the course architect, this week, about Solutia.  As I continue to play the course it feels more and more Ross-like to me and reminds me of a combination of Pine Needles, Mid Pines, and Country Club of Asheville,  all of which I've played once.  I'll have a better feel for it after the Dixie Cup in October.  I'm also going to take some photos of the greensites sometime soon and post them for comments from our Ross afficianados on GCA.

Bill Amick's email included the following:

'I didn’t even know the course is now named Solutia Golf Club.  It was built as Chemstrand GC and I knew it became Monsanto.  As many courses are, it was a real struggle to get finished to open.  Ken Raines, a nice fellow was in charge of the construction and was right out of the nylon plant with no golf course experience.  He and his crew were serious workers though and stayed on for years maintaining the course.  Ken admitted later that he had no idea why I wanted the greens built the way I did, until he had to take care of them and golfers began to play them.  I’m glad to hear from you about the course and will drop in again one day.

Maybe I was influenced by Donald Ross more than I realized.  I started in golf caddying at Hope Valley Country Club in Durham, a Ross course.  In fact the picture of the caddy line at Pinehurst in the last couple issues of Golf Magazine took my mind back in time.  I broke the color line at Hope Valley.  All the other caddies there were Black.  I seemed to always get out quickly because I think Cheese, the Black caddymaster, would look out in the caddy yard at my white face and I'd make him nervous.  Following that I then caddied at Wyandot Country Club outside Columbus, OH, also a Ross designed course.'

Solutia, to me, is certainly a hidden 'gem', particularly since the total cost of membership, as I've mentioned before, is $220...per quarter.  By the way, I got to the course on Saturday at 11:15 AM, teed off immediately, had to play through two groups, and finished (with one other player) at 2:10

P.S.  My alleged 'mental toughness' may just be a function of some new found happiness in my life...An incredible woman named Sheila, as well as a new, wonderful home we are buying and a new business I was lucky enough to be able to buy (I'll be taking over at the end of August).  Sometimes, I suppose, changing your life is all for the good.

[Andy Troeger]

I'll have to admit that I've not been a fan of most of the crowned greens that I've seen. The few courses I've played with many crowned greens are on courses that are actually trying to spend very little on maintenance (these types of greens certainly drain very well). They also tended to be very short and wide open, and the crowns the only defense the course had (as was mentioned in the earlier posts). I might have a different opinion had I played a "better" course with the same greens. Crowns certainly do make the target area difficult by rejecting shots that are not right on target, and they do also put more emphasis on the short game. Since I tend to have enough trouble chipping and putting as it is, that might be why I don't like them
Andy

[Bill_McBride]

Mike and George, how many crowned greens were there?  I'm thinking back and only coming up with a handful.  Generally the greens were midsized and well contoured, but which would you say were crowned in the manner say of #2 Pinehurst?

[George Pazin]

Bill -

I can't speak to comparisons to #2 and maybe crowned isn't the right word, but greens that had the characteristic I am referring to would include: 1 - 3, 5-7, 9, maybe 11 (the pin was so up front that I'm embarrassed to say I didn't notice the back portion of the green), 14, 15, 16, definitely 17 !! and 18. All of these greens were largely built up in parts with the edges running away from the player.

Kris Kerr -

I guess we simply have a different perspective. Putts rolling off greens is interesting to me. Pushing an 8 iron 5 yards right of a green and finding water is decidedly less so.

Golf's a big world....

[SL_Solow]

George, if you like courses where you can putt off greens if you aren't careful, you'll love Crystal Downs.  Mike, i had the chance to play Hope Valley about 4 years ago and really liked it.  However the greens complexes had been redone by one of the Maples and had lst much of the Ross feel.  I thought they didn't really fit.  I had heard there was some talk of at least a partial restoration but I lst track of the status.

[Joe Hancock]

SL,

On monday I was putting off the greens at CD while BEING careful!

Joe

[Mike_Golden]

Bill,

The greens at Solutia that I consider crowned are 1,3,5,6,9,10,12,14,16,17, and 18.  Of these, there are uphill approach shots on almost all of them with the exception of #16 and 17.  I hit an approach shot to #6 the other day, it landed just off the right front edge and went right back down to the fairway-I just needed to hit it on the green.

[Bill_McBride]

I guess we need to get out there again soon, I don't recall any where near that many crowned greens, at least not in the crowned glory of #17!

I think Kathleen and I will be joining out there while we are renovating hurricane-torn Pensacola Country Club.  Solutia may be the best value for money golf in the country.

[Mike_Golden]

I'll be back in town on Wednesday and have a couple of weeks before finalizing the business so let's go do it.

By the way, I'm in Corning right now and playing Mark Twain in Elmira tomorrow and Saturday-a Ross circa 1936, greens fees are $21-this will be a good comparison to Solutia.

[Bill_McBride]

We leave the next day for Chicago and the Walker Cup.  I'll call when we get back.  Have fun at Mark Twain, heard great things about it.

[Mike_Golden]

Enjoy Chicago-are you going to set Shivas straight on lots of stuff

[Jeff_Brauer]

Um, because golfers generally hate them?

Seriously, most golfers believe that most greens on most courses should help them (ie make for predictable shots) or in the words of Mr. Nicklaus - "The golf course should never hurt the golfer."  I think crowned greens are a feature that hurts the golfer.

For some reason, golfers really get p.o.'d about a few things - one is not being able to play forward out of a sand bunker, and another is seeing a shot light on the green, but not hold.

My mentors - who I think were typical of design theory in the 60's and beyond - virtually always designed greens the other way around - at least the front entries were concave, not convex, so that any shot that hit the green tended to stay on the green.

Call it dumbing down, design for speed of play, or using to design to help the golfer.  I think most folks who would commission a course to be built would say that most greens should be receptive and hold balls, just in the name of customer satisfaction and speed of play.  

I also know of courses that have remodeled the few crowned greens they have in the name of fairness.  IMHO, If one or two were crowned, I would consider that a nice change of pace.  Othes wouldn't.

[Bill_McBride]

I agree, Jeff, I'm going to have to go out to the course with Mike Golden and take a serious inventory.  I think a couple of the greens were severely crowned and that's about right.  More than that......

[George Pazin]

Bill, if 17 is your standard for crowned, then there was only one!

As I explained in my previous post, maybe crowned isn't the right word. What I was referring to was the fact that most of the greens, by my count or Mike's, featured greens where the edges ran away from the player, or, using Jeff's terminology, were convex.

I think Tommy once said that the great courses of the world were convex rather than concave. I know it's a feature I like, but, if Jeff's right, I guess I'm even more unusual in my tastes than I thought.

[Mike_Cirba]

As I explained in my previous post, maybe crowned isn't the right word. What I was referring to was the fact that most of the greens, by my count or Mike's, featured greens where the edges ran away from the player, or, using Jeff's terminology, were convex.

I think Tommy once said that the great courses of the world were convex rather than concave.

George,

I've had very few moments of original insight in my life, but I have to claim this one.  

It came back when I was looking at pictures of Olde Kinderhook, a Rees Jones design in NY state.  It was as if you took the typical bowled in, concave Rees Jones course and inverted it.  It then occurred to me that almost every course we revere seems to have "anti-containment", what with hog-backed fairways, and domed greens, and edges slipping into deep, steep bunkers.  The converse is also largely true.  

So, I have Rees to thank for that one.  

[George Pazin]

That is definitely an idea to be proud of, Mike. I'll be sure to properly credit you next time.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()