The other architect at Seminole

« **on:** July 30, 2005, 10:27:29 AM »

Legend has it Ross really lobbied for the Seminole commission. According Ross's biography Seminole chose between two architects--DJR and an unnamed architect. The unnamed architect evidently proposed moving quite a bit of soil from the western most ridge to the flattish ground in the middle of the property.

Does anyone know who this unnamed fellow was....any educated guesses?

« **Reply #1 on:** July 30, 2005, 10:37:31 AM »

Tom:

No clue. But I will say I've gather a lot about what makes you tick! All these threads about who did what to which course. You really want to know all the history!

Good luck on your quest.

« **Reply #2 on:** July 30, 2005, 10:38:46 AM »

Langford and Moreau were doing a lot of work in Florida in mid 1920s. Whitten has some of Langford's papers. Ask him...

« **Reply #3 on:** July 30, 2005, 11:30:09 AM »

Quote from: Tom MacWood on July 30, 2005, 10:27:29 AM

Legend has it Ross really lobbied for the Seminole commission. According Ross's biography Seminole chose between two architects--DJR and an unnamed architect. The unnamed architect evidently proposed moving quite a bit of soil from the western most ridge to the flattish ground in the middle of the property.

Does anyone know who this unnamed fellow was....any educated guesses?

Undoubtably some Fazio or Jones forebear.

« **Reply #4 on:** July 30, 2005, 11:39:22 AM »

Tom MacWood:

Obviously you picked that up in Brad Klein's book. He certainly didn't know despite what appears to be a good deal of research on Seminole on his part. I sure have no idea who the other architect may've been, despite being around there for so long. Before Barry Van Gerbig took over down there in the last fifteen or so years (although he doesn't run the place any longer) the architectural evolution and architectural knowledge in and around the club seemed to be pretty sleepy. There's a lot of differences of opinion about some of the things that happened to that place architecturally over the years, not the least of which was what or how much Dick Wilson did there. Some, like Pete Dye, think he did quite a bit. I feel he didn't do that much. His most notable contribution was obviously the 18th green. It's time like this I wish I could talk to my Dad---I think he would've known. He was a huge supporter of Wilson's in every way---they were friends. Down around there in the late 50s and early 60s amongst the serious golfing crowd Dick Wilson was THE MAN. Unfortunately he killed himself with the booz. They sort of latched onto Joe Lee but not really after Dick Wilson died. And then into town came this young guy and his wife from Indiana---Pete and Alice Dye---and Dad latched onto them. Actually Dad knew Pete and Alice from competitive golf when both Pete and Alice went to Rollins College together.

« **Reply #5 on:** July 30, 2005, 11:56:32 AM »

I certainly don't know this but it would not surprise me at all if the other architect was Flynn. He sure was working in Florida then and he sure as hell had moved a ton of earth in one "blank canvas" project (Indian Creek).

Flynn sure did use natural land and topography well though and for that reason I can't see him proposing to move any of that western ridge-line. When good architects see something like that they generally find the best way to use it, not move it.

There's this story that's been going around Philadelphia that says Ross was pissed at losing a big project here and intended Aronimink to be the payback for that. Joe Logan says he remembers reading that but can't figure out where and can't remember the course and project. The most likely candidate we think is HVGC around the same time---a project that went to William Flynn.

Was Ross out to out-compete Flynn for the Seminole project since they say Seminole may've been the only project Ross dedicatedly went after?

Did Ross sort of have it in for the "Philly School" architects? He may have since Ross had a pretty active office here and very few projects in this area to show for it.

« **Reply #6 on:** July 30, 2005, 02:16:34 PM »

"There's this story that's been going around Philadelphia that says Ross was pissed at losing a big project here and intended Aronimink to be the payback for that. Joe Logan says he remembers reading that but can't figure out where and can't remember the course and project. The most likely candidate we think is HVGC around the same time---a project that went to William Flynn"

Tom -

I've heard that the commission Ross was shooting for, and lost to Flynn, was Philadelphia CC. As a member of Aronimink, I think of heard that story... but it might've been after a couple see-throughs on the patio.

What's the timing of Flynn at Phila.CC... does that come right before Aronimink moved to Newtown Square?

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

« **Reply #7 on:** July 30, 2005, 05:54:13 PM »

Seminole is closed this time of year, isn't it? I'm heading down there later this month for my brother-in-law's wedding and if it was open I'd try to pull some strings to get on. Someone enlighten me, please...

« **Reply #8 on:** July 30, 2005, 06:26:04 PM »

Closed!

« **Reply #9 on:** July 30, 2005, 07:19:24 PM »

Quote from: JES II on July 30, 2005, 06:26:04 PM

Closed!

Unless you know the superintendent.

« **Reply #10 on:** July 30, 2005, 10:08:42 PM »

What western ridge. I thought the site was flat?

Macwood/Dugger

Are you through trying to backtrack from your statements on that one?

« **Reply #11 on:** July 30, 2005, 10:13:05 PM »

Quote from: rgkeller on July 30, 2005, 07:19:24 PM

Quote from: JES II on July 30, 2005, 06:26:04 PM
Closed!

Unless you know the superintendent.

Do you figure Mr. Vegis knows the superintendent?

Do you think the superintendent is happy with that post?

« **Reply #12 on:** July 30, 2005, 10:22:07 PM »

I never went to Seminole in the summer but I did stop in once at Gulf Stream in the summer. Both clubs are completely closed and that obviously means the golf course too. One would not want to play Gulf Stream when I saw it in the summer and the same is probably true of Seminole. Both are generally down in the summer for some real maintenance.

« **Reply #13 on:** July 30, 2005, 10:52:06 PM »

I think Langford, Banks and Flynn are all good guesses and would be my prime canidates. Herbert Strong might be another. Long shots Alison, Tippett and MacKenzie.

« **Reply #14 on:** July 31, 2005, 06:56:06 AM »

Someone who knows Pete Dye should ask him about Rufus Johnson's (I think I have the name right) contribution to Seminole. I believe Pete was so impressed with Mr. Johnson's design work on the greens that he donated a portrait of Mr. Johnson to the club.

« **Reply #15 on:** July 31, 2005, 07:05:05 AM »

"What's the timing of Flynn at Phila.CC... does that come right before Aronimink moved to Newtown Square?"

Wayne Wiggins Jr:

All three of those courses came in sort of simultaneously in the late 1920s (1926-1929) so it's sort of hard to tell which one when out to contract first.

We do know Aronimink was under construction as early as 1927, perhaps even late 1926 (aerials show that).

« **Reply #16 on:** August 01, 2005, 11:27:41 AM »

My guess would be Herb Strong. He was very active in Florida a the time and based on what he did at Ponte Vedra, he was definitely not averse to moving a lot of dirt.

Bob

« **Reply #17 on:** August 01, 2005, 11:37:44 AM »

Perhaps one of the best ways to get some indication of who the other architect may've been would be to look very carefully at who the people who started Seminole were and where they came from. I think that kind of thing sort of shows trends on architects used. Back then those guys sort of had their favorites they basically passed around through courses those guys did where a lot of them basically knew each other.

Frankly, I've never known who the people were who founded Seminole but I think I'd bet some pretty good money that most all of them came from Boston, New York and Philadelphia.

There was a guy down there back then by the name of Charles Munn who they used to refer to as "Mr. Palm Beach". I'd be quite surprised if Munn didn't have some significant part in founding Seminole and frankly I'm not even sure if he played golf or much of it.

« **Reply #18 on:** August 01, 2005, 01:25:49 PM »

TE
That is an excellent idea. The first president of the club was EF Hutton; the first pro was Gil Nichols also from NY. That would probably point to Banks or Strong. Strong was a friend on Nichols.

Actually Langford is also a very good possiblity. I had strong ties to Palm Beach; I believe he wintered there every year and was best golfers in the area. If I'm not mistaken he also remodeled Everglades...another bastion of East coast bluebloods.

« **Reply #19 on:** August 01, 2005, 01:41:38 PM »

Tom, Not to turn this thread in another direction, but you wrote, "All three of those courses came in sort of simultaneously in the late 1920s (1926-1929) so it's sort of hard to tell which one when out to contract first. We do know Aronimink was under construction as early as 1927, perhaps even late 1926 (aerials show that)."

I thought that move occurred in 1922/23. The reason I believe this to be so, and I could be way off base since I'm depending on memory rather than looking in my files, is that Tilly opened his Aronimink course in rexel Hill in 1915 & I believe it was only 6-7 years later when the Ross course was opened and Tilly's went extinct.

« **Reply #20 on:** August 01, 2005, 07:43:22 PM »

Tom Paul has the copies of the photos, but I believe the construction era photos for Aronimink were 1927 and the course was completed in 1928. I think it was open for play in 1929.

Flynn was very busy in the Philadelphia area during the construction and completion of Aronimink. Course openings as followed:

Lehigh Country Club and Rolling Green Golf Club: 1926

Philadelphia Country Club and Plymouth Country Club: 1927

Huntingdon Valley Country Club, Sunnybrook Country Club (revision of Ross), Philadelphia Cricket Club (revision of Tillinghast) and Springdale Golf Course: 1928

Pine Valley Golf Club (as yet undetermined) and Woodcrest Country Club: 1929

Seaview Pines Course: 1931

I've heard rumors that the course Ross was dismayed at not getting included Rolling Green, Philadelphia Country Club and Huntingdon Valley with the last two as the most likely candidates.

Flynn was in Florida for these courses:

Cleveland Heights Golf Club and Ritz Carlton North and South Courses (not completed): 1925

Opa-Locka Golf Course and Floranada South Course: 1926

Boca Raton North and South Courses: 1929

Indian Creek Club: 1930

Miami Beach Polo Club (not completed): 1931

Normandy Shores Country Club: 1936

Of course the architectural plans for these clubs preceded the opening date; usually by two years or so.

I never heard Flynn associated with Seminole. There's a picture of he and Ross together in Dan Wexler's book--I think Missing Links. I suspect it was taken while both were working for Mizner's project before he went broke. Ross at the Cloister Inn and Flynn's 2 courses for the Ritz Carlton. But then again, I never heard of Flynn at Pine Meadow in Illinois. That should be an interesting finding one way or another.

News:

T_MacWood

John_Conley

RJ_Daley

rgkeller

TEPaul

TEPaul

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

JESII

rgkeller

HamiltonBHearst

JESII

TEPaul

T_MacWood

Jim_Coleman

TEPaul

BCrosby

TEPaul

T_MacWood

Phil_the_Author

wsmorrison