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Tim Bert

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Nicklaus Evolution
« on: July 05, 2005, 08:22:21 PM »
I think the biggest leap from bad to good has been Nicklaus

I saw this post on another thread about architects improving, and I'd be interested everyone's opinion on when Nicklaus most improved as an architect (if you agree with the statement.)  Has it been gradual improvement, or is there a time period you would cite when his work got substantially better.  What do you think he learned that caused this improvement?

I've played 4 Nicklaus courses that I know of - Reflection Bay and 3 of the Bear Trace courses in TN.  All are fairly new Nicklaus courses, and I haven't really been unhappy with any of them (Reflection Bay was a bit pricey for the product.)  I really enjored Bear Trace at Ross Creek Landing the best of the four.  It appears that he perhaps benefited from a better piece of land at that site than some of the other Bear Trace courses.

Do those of you who have played these tracks (particularly the Bear Trace courses) consider them to be on the higher end or lower end of the Nicklaus design spectrum?

Brad Klein

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Nicklaus Evolution
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2005, 08:41:17 PM »
See the very perceptive article by Tony Pioppi on Nicklaus' evolution - in the latest issue of Links.

Tim Bert

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Re:Nicklaus Evolution
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2005, 08:55:04 PM »
I did a quick search of the Links web site, and I found this quote from an article...

"As perhaps the premier architect of his time, Jack Nicklaus has built over 200 of the world’s finest golf courses."

I don't think that this is the article to which you referred me, but this is certainly a bold statement if I've ever read one!!

Brad Klein

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Nicklaus Evolution
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2005, 09:09:45 PM »
Why not read the article in the latest Links and read it carefully?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2005, 09:10:27 PM by Brad Klein »

Tim Bert

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Nicklaus Evolution
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2005, 09:14:10 PM »
I'd love to read the article.  Any idea where I can get a copy of the magazine in the greater Hartford area?

I signed up on the web site, but I can't find the article there, so I'm assuming I need a hard copy.

PjW

Re:Nicklaus Evolution
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2005, 11:14:50 PM »
Tim

I worked on the following Nicklaus courses and have played most of them:
Bear Creek (Temecula, CA)
Desert Highlands
Park Meadows
Meridian
CC of the Rockies
Castle Pines
CC of the South
Four Seasons Kona, HI
Coyote Creek I & II

I would agree with "jypoe redanman" with the fact that some of what you see is the associate designer, but more has to do with the site, the type of facility and end user/player.   I like the old 80's design concepts which I think are bolder than some of the designs today.  This maybe due to influence of Cupp and Morrish.  However, I think he has had to change with the whims of the golf developer.  In the 80's the work was more for individual country clubs ( Vickers, Thompson), 90's were high end daily fee, resort, 20s look to be resort, mid level to high end country club and some muni.  Of course almost evrythng is related to real estate development now.  When is the last time you saw a stand alone country club being built?  

 :o

Brad Klein

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Nicklaus Evolution
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2005, 01:25:53 AM »
Tim,

call the magazine in Hilton Head and demand they send you a copy!

Kris Kerr

Re:Nicklaus Evolution
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2005, 01:32:26 AM »
copies for everyone in fact! how long 'til the current version makes it to nz??

Jonathan Cummings

  • Total Karma: -4
Re:Nicklaus Evolution
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2005, 06:03:23 AM »
I consider 4 recent courses Jack has done to be fine layouts:

Mayacama
Bear's Club
Outlaw
Pronghorn

Each is a top 100 course in my book.

Someday we'll have to hogtie Tom D and pry out of him how credit Jack should be given for Sebanok.

JC

Craig Van Egmond

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Nicklaus Evolution
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2005, 08:12:39 AM »

I read the article last night and thought it was very well done. I have only played 4 Nicklaus designs and none of the them are pre 1990. I enjoyed each one very much and would highly recommend them to anyone.

Kaui Lagoons (Kiele)
Reflection Bay
TPC at Snoqualmie
Old Greenwood

Most recent was Old Greenwood outside Truckee, CA (Just after the recent earthquake, that was fun!).  The course was in excellent shape as you'd expect for a Nicklaus course, but also had some very cool holes including some short par fours, a short par five and diverse par threes.  One of the par 5's used some interesting deception with boulders.  

I think the Nicklaus team is making courses that are enjoyable to the higher handicaps but can still test the good players.

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:Nicklaus Evolution
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2005, 09:57:30 AM »
I have experience of three Nicklaus courses in the UK:

St Mellion (1988)
The London Club (1993)
Carden Park (late 90s)

St Mellion has some excellent holes making good strategic use of the natural features of the land.  Where the land is dull, however, the holes are dull.

The London Club has two courses, one attributed to Nicklaus, the other to Ron Kirby.  They struck me as formulaic.

Carden Park is dull beyond measure, despite the obligatory water holes.  But it's very successful - it gets oodles of business golf and reasonably high profile events.  You don't drive to the course, you fly in in your helicopter.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Nicklaus Evolution
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2005, 09:58:30 AM »
Thanks to Tony for the wonderfully written article and to Brad for the recommendation.

I found more fodder in the subtext, than just what was written.

 Finally, the critics of Jack's work, can hone in on the man, and not offend his design team members.


Patrick_Mucci

Re:Nicklaus Evolution
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2005, 10:09:07 AM »
I consider 4 recent courses Jack has done to be fine layouts:

Mayacama
Bear's Club Is this the one in Florida ?
                                     TOP 100 ?
                                     Surely you jest
[/color]

Outlaw
Pronghorn

Each is a top 100 course in my book.

Someday we'll have to hogtie Tom D and pry out of him how credit Jack should be given for Sebanok.

If you believe that the routing is the soul of the golf course, then it's Tom Doak's soul that's imbued in Sebonack.
[/color]

JC

cary lichtenstein

  • Total Karma: -3
Re:Nicklaus Evolution
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2005, 10:28:55 AM »
Recent works of Nicklaus that I think are exellent:

Ritz in Jupiter
Mayacama
May River Club at Palmetto Bluffs
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

George Pazin

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Re:Nicklaus Evolution
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2005, 10:37:11 AM »
One of my biggest surprises in my trip to Kiawah was playing Turtle Point, which was very early in Jack's career. It was very understated and definitely had holes that required thought. I think there is a story about Jack returning many years later and being somewhat horrified at how many homes had sprung up around it, and how close they are to the course. That'd probably be my biggest criticism (other than maybe the awkwardness in the routing of the first par 3 on the beach), but the housing doesn't sound like it was at all Jack's fault.

There is a private course here in Pittsburgh called Nevillewood that hosts the Mario Lemieux Celebrity Invitational every year. I've walked it many times during the event, and it seems like if you can ignore some of the flash and some of the GIGANTIC homes intruding - admittedly, a tall task, pun somewhat intended - that there are some interesting holes there. If nothing else, I don't think I'd get bored playing there, due to the constant ups and downs in the land (it's in Pittsburgh, remember).

I haven't played any new Jack, so I guess I can't really comment on his evolution.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

PThomas

  • Total Karma: -21
Re:Nicklaus Evolution
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2005, 10:47:22 AM »
George -- I have also played Turtle Point and wasn't as thrilled with it as you..

a few holes on the ocean, but other than that nothing too memorable, imho

the old Dave Marr test of a golf course:  would you recommend a friend get off the interstate to play it?

a definite no, I say..
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Matt_Ward

Re:Nicklaus Evolution
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2005, 10:48:21 AM »
The article by Tony P accurately touches upon the evolving nature of Nicklaus design.

It's also important to point out as redanman has already done so -- that the nature of not only Jack's thinking is involved here but the quality of the recent design associates that Jack has working for him today.

Jonathan is quite correct on the courses he mentions -- I would hasten to add Hokuli'a on the Big Island and Cimarron Hills in the greater Austin, TX area as examples where the Bear has mixed the qualities of high quality shotmaking without making the courses play in such a one-way fashion as so many of his earlier designs. I also see Outlaw at Desert Mountain as a wonderful change of pace layout from the more demanding and in some cases overly penal aspect you see with a few of the other layouts at the complex.

The Nicklaus "brand" is really about the collaborative framework that Jack has now with his design team. I hope to play some of his newere efforts in the Far West with Pronghorn in OR and Old Greenwod in the Lake Tahoe area later this summer.

The evolution of Nicklaus design is clearly proof that failure to keep up on what is happening can mean an outdated and erroneous thinking on what is transpiring in today's recent efforts.

George Pazin

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Re:Nicklaus Evolution
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2005, 11:17:34 AM »
Paul -

I could definitely see a lot of people sharing your opinion. As I said, it is very understated and, as discussed ad nauseum on here, understated courses tend to be ignored. What I liked was that it was very playable - ie not tons of water in play - and that the greens rewarded prudent play. Miss on one side and it's a relatively easy up and down, miss on the other and it really isn't. It definitely lacked the flash of Osprey Point, but I thought it was more interesting to play.

Matt -

Have you played Nevillewood? If so, what did you think?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Hunt

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Re:Nicklaus Evolution
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2005, 09:30:52 PM »
Cary,

I have played the Ritz in Jupiter but not Bear's Club. Are they similar in nature? I'd be interested in your comparison.

We still on for October?

Hunt

A.G._Crockett

  • Total Karma: -1
Re:Nicklaus Evolution
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2005, 10:16:21 PM »
See the very perceptive article by Tony Pioppi on Nicklaus' evolution - in the latest issue of Links.

I read the article this afternoon; very well-done.  (Ironically, I read it right after my first round at East Lake.)  Remarkable that there is almost a sense of pride in NOT having looked at the work of other architects in general and the "classics" in particular.  The quote about Doak is also a showstopper.  This sort of ego may be great for a player to possess, but I would wonder if they serve a GCA well at all.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2005, 10:16:53 PM by A.G._Crockett »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

cary lichtenstein

  • Total Karma: -3
Re:Nicklaus Evolution
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2005, 05:49:11 PM »
Hunt:

We are still on for October, we have a wedding that weekend in St. Louis

Ritz compared to Bears Club:Not tooo easy to describe

Bears Club is tighter off the tee, both play about the same difficulty overall. Lots of similiarities in closely copped grass aound the greens, and fallaway runoff areas. Traps are better at the Ritz

I perfer the Ritz,, but I am a member there, the Bears guys prefer the Bears Club.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 13
Re:Nicklaus Evolution
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2005, 09:51:02 PM »
Has anyone seen the latest LINKS Magazine (just out) with a long discussion of Jack's work as an architect?

I haven't seen it yet, but a friend called today to read me a quote about Sebonack, which I hope I heard wrong.  I'll wait and let someone quote it verbatim before I comment.

wsmorrison

Re:Nicklaus Evolution
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2005, 10:11:37 PM »
On page 45:

"Last spring Nicklaus joined Doak to address the media at the site of Sebonack Golf Club, a course scheduled to open soon on the eastern tip of Long Island.  Doak (ironically enough, a Pete Dye disciple) is one of the few architects to team with Nicklaus since his early days of collaboration with Dye and Muirhead.  Doak's scholarly mind and Nicklaus' I-did-it-my-way approach stood in clear contrast as the two architects spoke.  Discussing Sebonack and other projects, Nicklaus painted himself as a man who designs in a historical vacuum, using his own high-quality standards and his client's needs as his only guidance.

'The definition of a good golf course is one that serves its intended use of the owner,' Nicklaus maintains, with 'intended use' ranging from player-friendly, sales-inducing real estate courses to golf-for-golf's-sake venues capable of hosting a professional tour event."

On page 83, later in the article is probably the quote you refer to:

"In Doak, Nicklaus recognizes a previous incarnation of himself--the Jack who didn't always try to meet everyone's needs.  'Tom still builds for his own ego, which is all right,' he says, reiterating that in no way does he wish to knock or admonish Doak.  'I built a lot for my own ego when I first started, too.  But pretty soon you temper what you do to fit what the owner wants.  I'm not criticizing him by any means on this.  He's still young in the game.'"

"At Sebonack, with the strong-willed Doak as a partner, Nicklaus most certainly will not be designing eveything on his own.  Some creative clashes over design decisions are likely, though the landscape will dictate much.  For different reasons, each architect will be fully aware how eagerly history waits to judge the result of their collaboration."
« Last Edit: July 07, 2005, 10:29:11 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Don Dinkmeyer

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Re:Nicklaus Evolution
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2005, 10:12:56 PM »
I was hoping someone would mention Kiele (Kauai Marriott) - its a favorite and i believe an early Nicklaus design.

Any comments on the #16th - their signature hole - would be interesting to me. It's the downhill to-the-harbor par 4 which I've heard praised and cursed in the same foursome(!)

Tim Bert

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Re:Nicklaus Evolution
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2005, 10:18:41 PM »
I guess the Nicklaus article explains this comment from another thread which I didn't quite understand.  I wasn't sure if it was some sort of inside joke...

I wanted to read it again...
Great words, especially from someone "still young in the game" and ""still building for his ego" ....  ::)