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DMoriarty

Coore, Crenshaw, and Corridors
« on: June 29, 2005, 11:55:44 PM »
In one of the new Sand Hills threads TomPaul observed the following . . .

1/ Wouldn't the 14th and 15th be even better if they melded the fairways together at least partially in the LZs. This is a Ran thing and he had a point. There is the question of danger of course which we carefully analyzed but Ran Morrissett does not buy at all the fact that it should matter if a few golfers a year get injured or killed if you can accomplish a good fairway meld.
. . .

[3/ At least in initial look there seems to be a sense from many tees of hole similarity. Pat and I remarked about that on our first round out there and then discussed it at length. I think we pretty much decided that could be a factor of the total uniqueness of Sand Hills that it's out there in such an enormous open space that each hole is always visually just a thing unto itself amongst a sea of rough space on either side from which no other hole to either side (or even ahead of you) is that visible as on most all other golf courses. In a sense that's part of the real uniqueness that is Sand Hills G.C. Pat and I also discussed that even if initially some holes may look similar standing on the tee once you get out on those holes they are real unique from one another in look and bigtime in playablilty.

I havent played Sand Hills, but his observations in these posts seem consistent with something I've noticed at the C&C courses I have played.  These guys seem to prefer segregating holes into their own corridors, much like Fazio is known for and much like Pine Valley is famous for.  Now I now that they sometimes go against this preference, but for the most part there is quite a bit of insulation between their holes.  

Now I suppose that some think that this is the way golf courses ought to be, but I for one find common areas quite charming; other beautiful holes sometimes make a nice backdrop; the glimpse of distance golfers can heighten the experience; common areas can really contribute to the connectedness, linking the links, creating and confirming the courses personality.  

Do Coore and Crenshaw overdo the use of insulated corridors in their designs?

TEPaul

Re:Coore, Crenshaw, and Corridors
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2005, 12:29:07 AM »
David:

That is an interesting pick up on your part on all the chatter on these recent Sand Hills threads because of that recent trip. Who would really know something like that, even them, if they even thought about such a thing?

You have a pretty good point there, though, about the things they've done which I know that actually isn't everything they've done or all that much that they've done. I's say that the open flatlland of Friar's Head is relatively close and congentialal in a routing "hole next to hole" sense but perhaps not. All the times I've been out there, there never  were many golfers around.

Mike Benham

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Re:Coore, Crenshaw, and Corridors
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2005, 01:42:50 AM »
Do Coore and Crenshaw overdo the use of insulated corridors in their designs?

Interesting query.  However, can we state that C&C's corridors are natural as opposed to manufactured and created?  I believe the answer yes can be applied to Sand Hills ... (I wonder if anyone of the +100 holes they identified on the property had any shared fairways?)

It seems that they also have an abundance of acreage to use in their routings ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

THuckaby2

Re:Coore, Crenshaw, and Corridors
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2005, 09:49:38 AM »
Interesting query indeed... of course I have no clue how C&C choose to do things or how they think - I rely on Tom Paul for info about that - nor do I care about any architect or favor one over the other at all - but the evidence is there that C&C don't like side by side golf holes.  I've played Kapalua Plantation, Cuscowilla, Bandon Trails and Sand Hills and I can only think of one instance where this happens:  14/15 Sand Hills.  Maybe I am missing some others?

The thing is though, it's not like any of these courses is lacking in any of the things Dave finds charming, that is:

"other beautiful holes sometimes make a nice backdrop; the glimpse of distance golfers can heighten the experience; common areas can really contribute to the connectedness, linking the links, creating and confirming the courses personality."

One can and does experience these things at each of the four C&C courses I've played - particularly Sand Hills.  You can't see or feel or hear golfers RIGHT NEXT to you, but you surely can see them off in the distance... and each hole is always very well linked to the next...the next tee is generally right there, within sight of the previous green, or the path to it is very clear... the sense of "journey" is done very well.

So no, I'd say they don't overdo the use of insulated corridors, because in each case they really aren't all that insulated.  C&C seems to pull off a very neat trick of achieving a tranquility on their courses, while still keeping them connected as Dave likes.  Hard to believe as these two things would seem to be mutually exclusive, but it's true... And that's among the many reasons why these courses are so truly great.

TH  

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Coore, Crenshaw, and Corridors
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2005, 10:03:02 AM »
Tom,
  You guys must have been having a lot of fun at Bandon to miss #3/4 at BT. ;)
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

THuckaby2

Re:Coore, Crenshaw, and Corridors
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2005, 10:13:58 AM »
Ed - I felt certain I might have missed some others, that's why I asked.  In any case obviously that's a good example.  Thanks.  There may be others.

But the main point remains that these examples are few and far between, correct?

But more importantly, that this doesn't matter too much, as I explained... methinks all the things Dave wants exist quite well at these C&C courses I've played.

TH


ed_getka

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Re:Coore, Crenshaw, and Corridors
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2005, 01:47:35 PM »
Just poking fun. I think you are right about the scarcity of examples, although I only have two courses to judge by. I'm enjoying reading all the feedback from the epic SH trip. When is Sir Bob going to chime in?
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

THuckaby2

Re:Coore, Crenshaw, and Corridors
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2005, 02:20:09 PM »
Sir Bob is likely

(a) still recovering; and
(b) attending to neglected clients, and wife.

I'm sure he'll chime in at some point - his "on-site contributions" were the stuff of legend.

 ;D

DMoriarty

Re:Coore, Crenshaw, and Corridors
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2005, 02:50:01 AM »
El Lupo Solo,

I suppose we can "state that C&C's corridors are natural as opposed to manufactured and created,"  but I'd feel more comfortable saying they look natural.  If and where C&C created corridors, they did a good job hiding it.  

Ed, I was actually thinking of Bandon Trails 3 and 4 when I wrote this and I wonder if it might be the exception which proves the rule.   Yes the holes share a common fairway, but it sure doesnt feel that way, does it?   Between the trees and brush they did not cut and the ridge on 4 (my favorite feature on the course by far), the two holes feel pretty insulated, at least for holes which share common ground.

No. 3 from the tee . . .

The ridge on No. 4 . . .


No. 4 from the tee . . .




Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Coore, Crenshaw, and Corridors
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2005, 10:46:13 AM »
I suppose we can "state that C&C's corridors are natural as opposed to manufactured and created,"  but I'd feel more comfortable saying they look natural.  If and where C&C created corridors, they did a good job hiding it.  

I agree, it's pretty hard to say the corridors at Hidden Creek were natural... ;D

Mike
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

ForkaB

Re:Coore, Crenshaw, and Corridors
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2005, 10:50:39 AM »
Isn't the answer to this question obvious?

C&C build good corridors.

Fazio builds bad corridors.

Game, Set and Match!

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Coore, Crenshaw, and Corridors
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2005, 11:07:17 AM »
I am getting very very uncomfortable with this degree of criticism.  ::)

BTW, Easthampton has 20 year old corridors that had to be followed for the first nine, but the second nine has very little in hte way of defined corridors.

Why does no one else ever mention EH, BTW?

Here's all of the C&C courses:

The Plantation Club, Kapalua (18 holes; opened 1991); Maui, Hawaii

Barton Creek Club (18 holes; opened 1991); Austin, Texas
Sand Hills Golf Club (18 holes; opened June 1995); Mullen, Nebraska
Klub Rimba Irian (18 holes; opened l996); Kuala Kencana, Indonesia
Cuscowilla Golf Club (18 holes; opened l997) Lake Oconee, Georgia
Talking Stick (36 holes; opened l997) Scottsdale, Arizona
The Warren Golf Course at The University of Notre Dame (l8 holes; opened 2000); South Bend, Indiana
East Hampton Golf Club (18 holes; opened 2000); East Hampton, New York
Austin Golf Club (18 holes; opened 2000); Austin, Texas
Chechessee Creek (18 holes; opened 2000); Spring Island, South
Friar's Head (18 holes; opened 2002); Long Island, New York
Hidden Creek (18 holes; opened 2002); Atlantic City, New Jersey
Old Sandwich (18 holes; opened 2004); Plymouth, Mass
Bandon Dunes #3 (18 holes; opening June, 2005); Bandon, Oregon

I wish more would dissect their work.  I love every one of their courses I've seen.

My limited observations:
Great use of triangulation - often W's, but not overlapped or interwoven within the routing except at Friar's which lead to no corridors in the fields.

Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Coore, Crenshaw, and Corridors
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2005, 11:23:04 AM »
I suppose we can "state that C&C's corridors are natural as opposed to manufactured and created,"  but I'd feel more comfortable saying they look natural.  If and where C&C created corridors, they did a good job hiding it.  


Yes, those are better words ... I just had visions of Sand Pines in my head for this question ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Coore, Crenshaw, and Corridors
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2005, 12:19:54 PM »
wclpr,
Being that you see absolute similarities between #2 & #11, I'm inclined to think that's what have may killed the discussion. ;D

(They have nothing in common other then direction, and even that could be dissected.)

You friend in four putting,
NUNIN

A_Clay_Man

Re:Coore, Crenshaw, and Corridors
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2005, 12:20:37 PM »
David, It sounds like your talking more about intimacy.
I found SH to be intimate, but not in the traditional sense, ala The Valley Club, or CPC. Intimate, because you can catch a glimpse of others golfing, other holes from some of the high spots. But what strikes me as proper at SH, is the use of all that space. Accentuating and enhancing the SH experience, especially for urban dwellers. Doak did the same at AS, in Globe, no? But, the new one Stone Eagle, has the intimacy, I suspect you're touching on.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2005, 12:21:08 PM by Adam Clayman »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Coore, Crenshaw, and Corridors
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2005, 12:24:44 PM »
Like the photos. Only a GCA geek would take a picture of that ridge like your second photo. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Coore, Crenshaw, and Corridors
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2005, 04:59:31 PM »
You also get a little of the common playing area from C&C at BT on 12/13, even though 12 is just a par 3.  I'sd say 12 is a long enough par 3 that you'll have people hitting clubs that will go far enough right to bring 13 into play.  We played 12 into the wind and had guys hitting long irons, 3 woods, and even a choked down 3/4 driver swing.  Of the two rounds we played, at least one ball ended up well into the 13th playing area.    

Pat_Mucci

Re:Coore, Crenshaw, and Corridors
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2005, 05:32:11 PM »
I love the potato field holes !

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Coore, Crenshaw, and Corridors
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2005, 06:48:54 PM »
Pat,
Describe the similarities between #2 & 11, other then their par and their general direction. (which isn't exact)

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