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Matt_Ward

When design fails to match quality land
« on: June 17, 2005, 06:49:45 PM »
During my recent trek to the Mountain Time Zone area I wanted to play the new 36-hole golf layout called Solider Hollow in the Wasatch Mountain State Park area of Utah -- approximately 45 minutes east of Salt Lake City.

In fact, the course was the host for certain Olympic events during the Winter Games in 2002. The courses are aptly named the Gold & Silver respectively and are both designed by Gene Bates.

I have had the fortune in playing a few of his designs -- the closest to my home being Due Process Stables in Colts Neck, NJ. In addition, I have already played a few others of his designs such as Circling Raven in Idaho, The GC at Yankee Trace in OH and Triple Crown GC in KY. The designs I have played were fairly good and what I had heard about the topography for the Solider Hollow site I was eager to play the two courses there.

Unfortunately, the two courses merely present "functional" golf. The Silver Course is set on pasture land that abuts the more rolling and mountainous land that the Gold Course occupies. The bunkering is merely formulaic and the greens just large discs with little meaning to them. Simply put -- you can land an approach in just about any area and the same two-putt formula applies.

The Gold Course stretches out to nearly 7,600 yards but much of that is false -- there are numerous fall-away fairways that allow for greater distance -- in addition to the help from the elevation on-site.

What's really disappointing is that the Gold Course has such a terrific site -- you can see the Sundance Canyon area in the near distance and the greater Heber Valley is also a nice sight to behold.

Unfortunately, the bulk of the course is simply an empty shell. The bunkers are big and fairly ordinary -- they generally hold flanking positions and there are few fairway bunkers that pose a very clear and challenging risk. The greens also follow the formula of being receptive with little detailing.

What's struck me as odd is that the same people who built the layout at Rochelle Ranch in Rawlins, WY also did the building of the two courses at Solider Hollow. Frankly, the results from the two projects could not have been more different.

The land for the Gold Course is full of rolling terrain and the juxtaposition of the mountain ranges in the distance would only add to the fanfare when playing there. The potential for so much more was indeed there.

To the credit of the facility the rates are very reasonable. Golf with a cart goes for $38 no matter whether you are a state resident or not.

When good land is available for golf design one would hope that the final layout is able to maximize what was there. Soldier Hollow had plenty of potential but the final outcome left me thinking that a golden opportunity (no pun intended) was indeed missed with their flagship layout.

For more info ...

www.soldierhollow.com/golf_course

I wonder how many other courses would be included under this category. One that comes to mind is Old Head in Kinsale, Ireland -- a number of stellar holes but no less than 1/3 of the layout is more American style holes than Irish. A truly grand site that could have had even better golf design.

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When design fails to match quality land
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2005, 06:57:40 PM »
The two most notable in this category from Australia must surely be the Ocean Course at The National, and the AGU's course, designed to host the national Open, Moonah Links (Open).

Such wonderful undulating sandy land, close to the coast, and almost always affected by winds. Both courses are less than inspiring. No great holes, no great sense of anticipation, and frequently questionable architectural practices.

The sense of excitement when walking the land prior to construction is no longer prevalent on either property. Both courses promised the world - and delivered an atlas.  

Matthew
« Last Edit: June 17, 2005, 06:58:21 PM by Matthew Mollica »
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Mark_F

Re:When design fails to match quality land
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2005, 12:28:20 AM »
Matt Ward,

How about a slight variation of the above.

You're talking about, I think, poor golf courses that result from good sites.

But what about good/very good/almost great golf courses on good land that are a hole or three away from being truly excellent?

Or are excellent courses, just not in the truly elite?

Say, for instance, Friar's Head.  Is that land the 'equivalent' to a Pine Valley or Cypress or Shinnecock?  Is the course the absoulte best that could have been had on that ground?

Isn't this almost as 'bad' a failure?  And I'm allowing a little subjectivity here for personal opinion.

Do you come across many courses like that in your travels?

texsport

Re:When design fails to match quality land
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2005, 11:47:02 AM »
Intended use of the course, budget, architect and era of construction all must be considered but for my money, I'd nominate Painswick in England as one of the worst of all time.

Goofy golf at it's peak! Completely artificial and unplayable!

For a course that comes close but could be better, I'd agree on Friar's Head.

How about a course that might have been more highly thought of but has lost ground because of the current explosion in distance? I'd nominate Harbour Town. It has been reduced to a boring layup course for good players.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2005, 12:12:13 PM by John Kendall,Sr. »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When design fails to match quality land
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2005, 02:20:23 PM »
Mr. Kendall, everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but I have to tell you that 12 Americans and 12 Brits (more or less) had a wonderful time at Painswick last year in a Ryder Cup-style match, including several practicing architects (Tom Doak, two of his guys, and Robin Hiseman from Scotland), and the common thread was that a good part of the fun was playing such an entertaining golf course!

Painswick may not be for everybody, but it has a great mix of driveable par 4's and a couple of tough par 3's, and just enough blind shots over the ramparts to make it exciting to climb the hills.  Of course you have to be careful played the shared fairways, but that's part of the experience.

texsport

Re:When design fails to match quality land
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2005, 02:32:06 PM »
I'm certain that it is an experience and entertaining, as long as serious competition isn't involved. Too much luck involved for, as you stated, my tastes.

The question originally posed was if the course is as good as it could have been. In that context, I would still contend that the answer is no, and that the course's chief attraction is it's unusual nature.

Everyone's definition of good is different. I respectfully accept your definition--for you.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When design fails to match quality land
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2005, 04:19:36 PM »
From a design context, I'm not sure what else could have been done with Painswick.  It's wedged onto a tiny parcel, so small that a number of holes share fairways with the groups coming from the opposite direction.  You also share the course with walkers, dogs and picnickers as it's common land.  The land is abrupt and quite broken.  The only fairly large open area is shared by the two par 5's.

From a personal perspective, I enjoyed the place, course and members alike, so much that I'm taking my wife there for a couple of rounds en route to St Andrews next month.  I'm wondering how she's going to like hauling a trolley up that first fairway!

Gerry B

Re:When design fails to match quality land
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2005, 05:15:37 PM »
Matthew:

agree with your assessment of National Old. I do like the old course however.

Have not played it but heard from relibale sources that Fox Harb'r in Atlantic Canada could have been a lot better considering the piece of property they had to work with.

There is a course between Vancouver and Whistler called Furry Creek -a mountainside site with some great views -too bad the course stinks

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When design fails to match quality land
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2005, 03:20:10 AM »
Gerry, I take it you liked Old and disliked Ocean?

Did you get a chance to play Moonah Links while here last?

MM
« Last Edit: June 19, 2005, 03:57:03 AM by Matthew Mollica »
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When design fails to match quality land
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2005, 06:58:04 AM »
For a course that comes close but could be better, I'd agree on Friar's Head.

 


John,

   I couldn't disagree with this statement more. All too often a new course comes along and garners considerable hype, attracting those humans acting like insects who buzz and hover all around it, many ready to praise, and a ready few to criticize. Bandon, Dallas Nat'l, Black Rock and of course, Friars Head come to mind. All of these places have opened in the last few years and have met, or exceeded that fate. All mentioned have had part glorious property, part slightly more pedestrian.

In the case of Friars Head, you mention that it "comes close" but could have been (or used its land) better. HOW? What part would you have changed? Would you have chosen to keep the course off the farm flats and solely on the bluffs? If so, How could you ever have achieved and 18 hole layout?

Should Ken Bakst have asked Bill Coore to pile earth down near Sound Ave. to create something artificial? If you, like many, think the transition holes aren't "the best use" or the the holes in the flat's not "special enough," or even the finishing holes less than perfect (perhaps, but they are unique and naturally carved out of the existing land), then where else on the property would you have routed them? Should Pebble Beach be considered a design failure for having it's inland holes? Remember, a course can only be as good as it's land and turf and very rarely (Perhaps only Sand Hills come to mind, among the moderns) are architects given so much land and latitude that they can ignore some measure of convention or orientation.

This thread is about design failing (presumably to any degree) to match the quality of the land. Friars Head, IMHO, just doesn't suffer from that. Sloping bluffs that rise from pancake flats don't permit either feature to be ignored or allowed to exclude the other. If anything, FH is coup d'grace of design for using its available land and extracting most of the highest qulality out of its topography.

A much, much better example of really poor design sited on otherwise high-quality land is the nearby Bridge GC , in Bridgehampton. It borders on tragic what occured there. The elevations, vistas and abundance of sloping sand-based turf there should have yieled something very, very special. Instead, it gave us no more than a highly-manicured goat track that is repetitious, uninspiring, and lacking in both style and strategy. Like him or not (and there are plenty who do), Rees near butchered that property and the result is glaringly evident. Only its fine conditioning works to hide some of that.

Other prime examples of design failure on quality land might well include The Links at Spanish Bay, The Preserve (Carmel), Kauri Cliffs, or Torrey Pines. Each of these has wonder topography that are occupied by mediocre and uninspiring designs.

A mention of a place like Friars Head just doesn't belong here. One might potentially concieve of a better hole (I can't but that's just my opinion) somehwere on its property, but measured on its whole, the design neither misses, nor comes up short on matching its quality land.

   

The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Gerry B

Re:When design fails to match quality land
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2005, 10:20:43 PM »
Matthew:

I played all 3 about 18 months ago. My home course in Cnada has reciprocation with The National. Liked  the Moonah course - but the Old was my favorite of the 3. Surprised it is not talked about more frequently when discussing Australian Golf. The Ocean had a few really good holes but overall impression was that it was the weakest of the 3.
My major criticism of The Old was that is was very tough course to walk and carry one's clubs.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:When design fails to match quality land
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2005, 10:27:38 PM »
John Kendall,
I would like to hear how or what you think would have been a better way for Friar's Head to take advantage of its given land.  Please describe in great detail. Please.

HamiltonBHearst

Re:When design fails to match quality land
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2005, 12:32:20 AM »


One of the top ten courses in the modern era and it did not get the most out of the land?  I would prefer Matt Ward to extol the virtues of the Bridge.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When design fails to match quality land
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2005, 05:20:28 AM »
John Kendall,
I would like to hear how or what you think would have been a better way for Friar's Head to take advantage of its given land.  Please describe in great detail. Please.


Tommy,

   They could have built a castle fit for an emperor! ;) Could have built a "potato-themed" mini golf course (hit it through the eye) :-*. Could have added an outdoor casbah instead of the practice green. 8) Could have built a brothel in place of a clubhouse :-X.....well you get the message! ;D ;D
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:When design fails to match quality land
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2005, 09:23:00 PM »
Steve,
It would seem that John Kendall has wisely removed himself from the subject, or..........he simply is still working on his description for a better routing.


Mike_Cirba

Re:When design fails to match quality land
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2005, 11:44:52 PM »
Steve Lapper,

Your post above is one of the best I've seen here delineating the differences between a great site with a mediocre course.

However, at the risk of incurring the wrath of the Gods...

Friars Head, very similar to Pac Dunes, is only held back from the top 10 in the world by the simple fact that the par threes are the weak link.  Each course has one great one (11 at PD, 10 at FH) but the rest don't measure up.  

Ok...I'm ducking now..

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When design fails to match quality land
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2005, 05:21:38 AM »
John

While I agree that Painswick is a very average course, I would not agree that it isn't natural.  Painswick is about as natural as it gets!  I don't dislike Painswick because of the architecture, I dislike because of the inferior turf.  In a land of four season golf, Painswick is only playable for perhaps 8 months a year at best.  

I have been back to play it recently.  It is much better in the dry, however, some holes are very pedestrian wet or dry.  There is one excellent par three and a few other very good green sites.  All in all, if people like this kind of quirky golf (which I do), play Kington instead.  Better views, better turf and better architecture.




Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When design fails to match quality land
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2005, 06:03:20 AM »
Steve Lapper,

Your post above is one of the best I've seen here delineating the differences between a great site with a mediocre course.

However, at the risk of incurring the wrath of the Gods...

Friars Head, very similar to Pac Dunes, is only held back from the top 10 in the world by the simple fact that the par threes are the weak link.  Each course has one great one (11 at PD, 10 at FH) but the rest don't measure up.  

Ok...I'm ducking now..

Mike,

 Duck & Weave right now! ;)

I do understand your point and consider it very well taken. Although I very much like the mix of one-shotter's at FH (I may be the only one here who thinks 17 is a very, very good hole) it is fair to note that they may not equal the selection found at a number of those in the top ten.

Certainly Shinny, CPC, ANGC, PVGC all have a better and broader range of threes. I'd argue that the like of Merion, WFW, Pebble, Pinehurst and Oakmont don't carry that delineator. Granted they deserve their rankings (or near to it) based on the range of their par 4's & 5's, but all it really does is point out that each course's strengths need to go beyond exceeding expectations and instead excel well beyond its peers to achieve a top, top ranking.

Leaving the rankings behind, there is little argument that can be effectively made or evidenced that a track like a Friars Head or Pacific Dunes failed to use its land in a vastly superior fashion to most others. Any amateur can critique a spectacular parcel for failing to yield one more hole of perch or vista, but it can be damn near impossible to find an acceptable and workable routing that permits the owner/operator to present 18 holes that start and return to the same place.

Let's measure the whole women....not just her face, legs or bosom. :P

Tommy,

 John is likely still working on getting north of Sound Ave! Last I heard, he was carrying Ree's umbrella and doing the "serpentine"...ala the In-Laws!

« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 09:31:09 AM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When design fails to match quality land
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2005, 07:58:47 AM »
  Philly area---Overbrook and Edgemont.  Interesing terrain - bad routings.


   Thanks Wayne---I shortened it ;D
« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 08:19:26 AM by Mike_Malone »
AKA Mayday

wsmorrison

Re:When design fails to match quality land
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2005, 08:12:30 AM »
Mike,

That's way too much detail.  I think you're overwhelming the readership with minutae.  Can't you edit this post down a bit and still get the message across  ;)

texsport

Re:When design fails to match quality land
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2005, 02:27:25 PM »
Steve,
It would seem that John Kendall has wisely removed himself from the subject, or..........he simply is still working on his description for a better routing.



I'm glad to see so many learned defenders of Friar's Head.

I'm happy to give my opinions on what I don't like about it.

(1) Though the course is built on varying terrain, it's transitions are too schizophrenic for me. Great effort has been taken to expose as much sand as possible, obviously to establish a links with dunes theme. Some holes are a complete departure from that idea. The use of trees as major hazards around the 9th and 17th greens is out of character for the course.

(2) The obvious placement of the 11th green in a  grove of trees above a dune field is too artificial.

(3) There doesn't seem to be any obvious aiming point when approaching some greens--5,6,7,18. The playability of the course would be improved with some idea of where to hit your approachs.

(4) The shaping and framing of the approach to the 18th green is very artificial and a disappointing finish.

(5) I'd like to have seen the ocean more.

I'd have no comments on routing as it appears to be masterful.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 02:36:08 PM by John Kendall,Sr. »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:When design fails to match quality land
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2005, 03:09:51 PM »
John:

Congrats on sticking to your opinions, even though you are about to have the house fall on your head.

You will be pleased to know that the management eventually decided you were right about your first point, and they have removed all the trees around both the ninth and seventeenth greens, as well as a lot of those to the left of the sixteenth fairway.

About your point (5), however, I have to inform you that the ocean is on the other side of Long Island.  I'm sure they would have liked to cut more of the trees along 15 green, 16, and 18, but environmental regulations precluded it.  We have been a bit more lucky about the same regulations at Sebonack, just because of the changes in elevation along the water's edge and the less dense vegetation on the bank.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When design fails to match quality land
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2005, 03:36:33 PM »
Steve,
It would seem that John Kendall has wisely removed himself from the subject, or..........he simply is still working on his description for a better routing.


I'm glad to see so many learned defenders of Friar's Head.

I'm happy to give my opinions on what I don't like about it.

(1) Though the course is built on varying terrain, it's transitions are too schizophrenic for me. Great effort has been taken to expose as much sand as possible, obviously to establish a links with dunes theme. Some holes are a complete departure from that idea. The use of trees as major hazards around the 9th and 17th greens is out of character for the course.

(2) The obvious placement of the 11th green in a  grove of trees above a dune field is too artificial.

(3) There doesn't seem to be any obvious aiming point when approaching some greens--5,6,7,18. The playability of the course would be improved with some idea of where to hit your approachs.

(4) The shaping and framing of the approach to the 18th green is very artificial and a disappointing finish.

(5) I'd like to have seen the ocean more.

I'd have no comments on routing as it appears to be masterful.

John,

   I appreciate your taking the time to define your dislikes. I don't know when you first, or last, played there but several of your perceived flaws have already disappeared (i.e. the trees as hazards for #9 and #17). No longer do trees affect these greens whatsoever and I agree with you the changes are for the better.

  Your use of the term "schizophrenic" for the transition holes is really quite silly. If, as you say, the routing is otherwise masterful, then somehow somewhere the course had to navigate those elevation changes. Would you have had C & C run the entire course parallel to the LI Sound? If so, then the course would have had a precarious positioning relative to the prevailing winds and property restrictions and would not have been able to get past 8-12 holes in total.

   You mention the link to the dunes and the departure of a few holes from them, but, in fact, it can only be artificial and not at all true to the land to have put dunes down on the flats...where they haven't ever been...for at least a few thousand years! If one were to appease your idea here, a severe departure from the NATURAL terrain would be have to occur...something neither the architect nor owner would likely have wished for. If that look/routing/feel was desired, the only man for the job would have been Super Rees!!

You don't like the placement of the 11th green inside a grove of trees??? The green and a surrounding eastern bunker lies on a wonderful canted opening between a small stand of firs to the west and and a larger and more major dividing grove to the east. There is considerable and ample room before ANY of the trees come into play (25 or more yds from the green's mouth). The green fits the fairway and the trees help shelter the back 3rd from some winds.

You don't like the lack of approach aiming points on 5-6-7-18...please do you need a set of airport runway klieg lights to align yourself? There is an abundance of alignment points (bunkers, trees, mounds, etc..) to choose from to set up your personal determination of risk and skill!
 
There are far fewer blind and semi blind shots at FH than at NGLA or Garden City or other great links-style tracks. The whole point here is to allow the golfer to think (correctly if capable) that the ground game will reward a well struck shot...or do you just want an aerial crosshairs? The course is very very playable for all levels of golfers. More so than so very many other top twenty ranked tracks.

I beg to differ with your assessment of the approach to the 18th. It is a classic heroic-style approach (uphill green demanding a full shot, false front and back-to-front slope) that is dramatically influenced by the wind's strength and direction. Remember this green sits just below the eventual clubhouse.

Lastly, your desire to see more water (it's the LI Sound..relatively benign compared to bigger cousin to the south and east, the Atlantic Ocean) is shared by many but would have necessitated destroying groves of rare pygmy birches and other unique species that help protect the sturdiness of those bluffs. Again, to do any of that would have been purely artificial and out-of-character.

John...I respect your opinion and candor but it's fairly obvious you've only played there once or twice and at least two years back. I wouldn't want to judge anything down your way on that basis. ;) This course and its design is not even close to failing to match its quality of land...you only forgot to see it in its context and scale. ;D




 
« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 03:44:12 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Geoffrey Childs

Re:When design fails to match quality land
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2005, 03:47:49 PM »
Quote
from Steve Lapper
John,

   I couldn't disagree with this statement more. All too often a new course comes along and garners considerable hype, attracting those humans acting like insects who buzz and hover all around it, many ready to praise, and a ready few to criticize. Bandon, Dallas Nat'l, Black Rock and of course, Friars Head come to mind. All of these places have opened in the last few years and have met, or exceeded that fate. All mentioned have had part glorious property, part slightly more pedestrian.

In the case of Friars Head, you mention that it "comes close" but could have been (or used its land) better. HOW? What part would you have changed? Would you have chosen to keep the course off the farm flats and solely on the bluffs? If so, How could you ever have achieved and 18 hole layout?

Should Ken Bakst have asked Bill Coore to pile earth down near Sound Ave. to create something artificial? If you, like many, think the transition holes aren't "the best use" or the the holes in the flat's not "special enough," or even the finishing holes less than perfect (perhaps, but they are unique and naturally carved out of the existing land), then where else on the property would you have routed them? Should Pebble Beach be considered a design failure for having it's inland holes? Remember, a course can only be as good as it's land and turf and very rarely (Perhaps only Sand Hills come to mind, among the moderns) are architects given so much land and latitude that they can ignore some measure of convention or orientation.

This thread is about design failing (presumably to any degree) to match the quality of the land. Friars Head, IMHO, just doesn't suffer from that. Sloping bluffs that rise from pancake flats don't permit either feature to be ignored or allowed to exclude the other. If anything, FH is coup d'grace of design for using its available land and extracting most of the highest qulality out of its topography.

A much, much better example of really poor design sited on otherwise high-quality land is the nearby Bridge GC , in Bridgehampton. It borders on tragic what occured there. The elevations, vistas and abundance of sloping sand-based turf there should have yieled something very, very special. Instead, it gave us no more than a highly-manicured goat track that is repetitious, uninspiring, and lacking in both style and strategy. Like him or not (and there are plenty who do), Rees near butchered that property and the result is glaringly evident. Only its fine conditioning works to hide some of that.

Other prime examples of design failure on quality land might well include The Links at Spanish Bay, The Preserve (Carmel), Kauri Cliffs, or Torrey Pines. Each of these has wonder topography that are occupied by mediocre and uninspiring designs.

A mention of a place like Friars Head just doesn't belong here. One might potentially concieve of a better hole (I can't but that's just my opinion) somehwere on its property, but measured on its whole, the design neither misses, nor comes up short on matching its quality land.
 
Quote

Steve- PERFECT

everyone is entitled to their opinion and I'm glad this site is open enough to give individuals the freedom to voice their opinions.  I could not disagree more with John's criticisms (or Mike Cirba's).  I think the transitions from dunes to open fields is every bit as good as Cypress Point in the flow and mood changes elicited during the round.  Mike Par 3 #4 is great for its angles to the green.  #8 great for its amazing greensite where you can putt back to the hole or facing it from the same spot and make both attempts (or look silly on both).  #17 with the tree removal is a butt puckering short iron at a perfect place in the round (ala Sawgrass). I can go on and on but not in this thread.  I'll end by saying there is nothing I don't like about Friars Head.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 03:50:11 PM by Geoffrey Childs »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When design fails to match quality land
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2005, 04:06:57 PM »
I'd love to see more courses that lack aiming points. Trying to figure them out is a big part of the fun. That's probably why I like skyline greens so much.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

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