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Cory

Future U.S. Open Sites
« on: June 14, 2005, 02:52:34 PM »
Will there ever be a day when we will start to see more public golf courses used for the U.S. Open?  Bethpage was used a couple of years ago and is now on the rotation of courses being used.  And Torrey Pines is being used next year.  I personally think that there are a number of public courses that would be a much greater test of golf than Torrey Pines.  I know that this has been on here before.  However, it seems that with all of the great public courses being built now, that a number of courses would be great to hold the open or even a PGA.  I know that Bandon Dunes will hold the mid amateur in a couple of years and this is awesome.  Bandon, to me, would make perfect sense to hold the US Open.  This might seem crazy, but what are your thoughts on a Wild Horse holding an Open?  I realize that Gothenburg, Nebraska is not a large enough site to hold a tournament, however, could Wild Horse be tightened up enough and stretched enough to be a good enough test of golf for the US Open?  That might be a crazy thought, however, I think it is crazy that Torrey Pines is a US Open site.  

RJ_Daley

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Re:Future U.S. Open Sites
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2005, 03:16:31 PM »
Quote
I realize that Gothenburg, Nebraska is not a large enough site to hold a tournament, however, could Wild Horse be tightened up enough and stretched enough to be a good enough test of golf for the US Open?  That might be a crazy thought, however...

I think you pretty much answered your own question above. ;)

I would honestly say that just as a matter of a golf course design that could be tweaked to test the best, it is feasible with very little modification.  They already have put in some new tees to lengthen #1 to about 410yards, #9 to 180ish, #12 to 430ish with more room yet.  I think that there is room to lengthen #2 on #1 green side of entry road, #7 and 8 could be lengthened farther, as could 13, 14 16 17 and 18, all by 20-50 yards, if it were so desired.  17 would make one hell of a par 4 instead of a par 5 for that level.  The course could easily and without design integrity compromise be lengthened to about 7400.  No pros are going to beat up on WH's greens and approaches when at their best.  The fairways are good wide when at their firmest.  Perhaps letting intermediate rough come in 5-10 yards in places, just to test the big boys is feasible.  

But, Wild Horse could not ever host much more than a college or Nebraska state event.  There is simply not enough services there, motels, restaurants, clubhouse space.  Some things just need to be kept quaint, unique, and proportionate, like Wild Horse.  Why even give in to the mental gymnastics? ::) ;D 8)
« Last Edit: June 14, 2005, 03:17:27 PM by RJ_Daley »
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Jim Sweeney

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Re:Future U.S. Open Sites
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2005, 03:33:42 PM »
Cory:

Yes, this topic has been discussed before.

Technically, Pinehurst and Pebble are public, so you have to include them. However, I'd be surprised if the USGA wouldn't be interested in one or two additional municipal courses as options for the Open. However, the list of quality courses already interested in hosting or continuing to host the open is large enough. Additonally, can one imagine the Open in Pittsburgh but not at Oakmont, or in Boston and not at The Country Club?  

Given that the Open will likely be held only in major metropolitan areas, the likely areas would be, in my opinion,  Philadelphia, Chicago, Cleveland, Denver, and the Pacific NW, either Portland or Seattle.  

What sites are possibilities? Not Pumpkin Ridge in Portland or Dubsdread in Chicago, as these are privately owned daily fees, and we are talking about municipals. (Also, these have been "test driven" with US Amateurs, Public Linkses, and Women's Opens and don't seem to have attracted US Open- type interest.)

It is unlikely, also, that the the USGA will front the money for another Bethpage style renovation, as there are few if any muni courses of that quality that could generate such interest from the USGA, the players, fans, etc. (And certainly not at privately held daily fees.)

Consequently, there it seems doubtful that the Open will find its way to more municipal courses. Unless, that is, there were better options than Winged Foot, Baltusrol, Oakmont, Oakland Hills, Southern Hills, Oak Hill, Congressional, etc.

"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Dan_Callahan

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Re:Future U.S. Open Sites
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2005, 04:41:49 PM »
Didn't the USGA take a token look at Ponkapoag? Somewhere, I read that they stopped by for a tour on a trip to look at the Country Club (was it Ponkapoag or some other Boston-area muni?). There was speculation that it might be the next municipal to be added to the rotation, but then I think reality set in: the place needs way too much restoration work.

Wayne Freeman

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Re:Future U.S. Open Sites
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2005, 11:59:06 PM »
Cory-  Torrey Pines isn't up until 2008 (Winged Foot and Oakmont in the next 2 years).  Personally I don't think Torrey is that great a pick, but it's going to be so long by the time they set it up that I'm sure par will be a good score.  I also think the USGA is going to stick to big metropolitan areas and with all the great courses listed above as proven sites, I doubt they'll take a chance or invest huge sums of money on another muny.  I'd love to see the Open go back to Bethpage in the future.

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Future U.S. Open Sites
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2005, 12:13:32 AM »
Two of you guys mentioned you think they'll stick to major metropolitan areas from now on.  So you think they'll never return to Pinehurst?  They seemed so eager to return for this year....

Wayne Freeman

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Re:Future U.S. Open Sites
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2005, 12:25:23 AM »
Scott-  I think Pinehurst will remain in the rotation especially if they have another great tournament this week.  And I think because of the fact that Payne Stewart won there and maybe because he is missed so much, they'll keep it in the rotation.

THuckaby2

Re:Future U.S. Open Sites
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2005, 09:41:22 AM »
Cory-  Torrey Pines isn't up until 2008 (Winged Foot and Oakmont in the next 2 years).  Personally I don't think Torrey is that great a pick, but it's going to be so long by the time they set it up that I'm sure par will be a good score.  I also think the USGA is going to stick to big metropolitan areas and with all the great courses listed above as proven sites, I doubt they'll take a chance or invest huge sums of money on another muny.  I'd love to see the Open go back to Bethpage in the future.

Wayne - how soon we forget - your wish has been granted - US Open sites are set pretty darn far in advance...

06 - Winged Foot
07 - Oakmont
08 - Torrey Pines
09 - Bethpage Black
10 - Pebble
11 - Congressional

It's all there at usga.org.

BTW, is it great or what that the USOpen always coincides with Father's Day?  Talk about the one day of the year I can command the TV... it's a wonderful thing.  Does anyone know if they set this up intentionally - that is, US Open is 3rd week in June just like Father's Day is 3rd Sunday in June?  If so I don't care what else the USGA has done, they are BRILLIANT.

 ;)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 09:41:49 AM by Tom Huckaby »

John Foley

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Re:Future U.S. Open Sites
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2005, 09:51:04 AM »
Anyone know if Shinnecock wants them back? It was an spectacular venue last year.

I know Oak Hill is pressing for a future open also.

Doesn't the USGA normally announce next on the list shortly after the Open?
Integrity in the moment of choice

Jim Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Future U.S. Open Sites
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2005, 10:18:24 AM »
Pinehurst is not that far from two pretty big areas- Raleigh Durham and Greensboro. I beleive there was some trepidation last time, but that was disproven. It's certainly not western Montana!

Future US open sites are announced after meetings of the executive committee when the site is approved, and not until all contracts and commitments are finalized. A site could be approved and not announced for months if not a year or more pending final negotiations. Since the executive committee meets during open week, such an announcement could come at that time, or shortly thereafter.
"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Jim Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Future U.S. Open Sites
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2005, 10:19:24 AM »
My guess is that Shinnecock will be happy to host the Open again.
"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Future U.S. Open Sites
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2005, 10:20:37 AM »
Cory

You posed this question-"Will there ever be a day when we will start to see more public golf courses used for the U.S. Open?"

I think the real question is- "Are there public/resort courses in major metroplitan areas not otherwise served by a top private venue that are capable(meaning infrastructure for tents,parking & media) of hosting an Open?

As noted, there are 4 public/resort courses in the current rota. Granted Pinehurst is not a major metroplitan area but it does have the infrastructure. Wild Horse and Bandon do not. I'm at a loss to come up with another public/resort course in an area that does not already have a proven Open venue. Of course, there are clubs in Chicago(Medinah) & Boston( The CC) that are now aligned with the PGA. The USGA seems reluctant to select Cog Hill and may be stuck with Olympia in Chicago not that there's anything wrong with that. Is there a public course in Boston that has the ability to host an Open? Of course, the USGA has stated that Merion is under consideration. Let's see what happens at this year's US Am. There is not a public course in the Philadelphia area that is worthy of an Open if Merion is ruled out.

David Fay's legacy at the USGA will be Bethpage and Torrey Pines.

Steve
« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 10:23:09 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mike_Cirba

Re:Future U.S. Open Sites
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2005, 10:27:53 AM »
Steve,

You're forgetting about Walnut Lane.  ;D

peter_mcknight

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Re:Future U.S. Open Sites
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2005, 11:35:24 AM »
Shinnecock is a lock to be selected to host another open, probably in 2015.  I would think the USGA would like another attempt to rectify the "wrong" that was the 4th round of last year's open.

Pinehurst is a permanent member of the US Open rota at this point because it has so much working for it--great course, great outside the ropes, etc.  I would think it will get another open before Shinnecock.

Medinah is pretty much on the outs with the USGA after it decided to enter into an alliance with the USPGA for the 2006 USPGA and the 2012 Ryder Cup.  I would think, at best, it won't get another open until close to 2020, if at all.

The Country Club should be the venue of the 2013 open, but it gave back this year's USPGA because it didn't feel like dealing with all the neighborhood issues.  Perhaps that will translate over to hosting an open...

Pebble is guaranteed the 2010 open, but, since it doesn't have the ability to be stretched past 6925 or 6930 (I walked all around the course in 2004 and added it all up), I wonder if the 2010 open will be Pebble's last.  I know they are in negotiations with the USGA to host a women's open, so I'm not sure if that means the end of opens at Pebble or if this is a pro-feminist, political statement kind of thing.

Oak Hill will get another open past 2012--I can only imaging the blue coats were especially impressed with the resistance to scoring at the 2003 USGPA.  Further, their relationship with the USPGA has expired, so that is a plus factor.

Bethpage is also a permanent part of the open rota--probably will get another open by 2016 or 2017.

Merion would be a great site for an open, but that kind of decision will have to wait until after the amateur.  If the course holds up, then I could see the USGA eating it a bit outside the ropes to go there in 2012.

A little note to Congressional--use that money you made hosting the Booz Allen tournament wisely for the revamp on the back nine or else the open scoring record could be broken there in 2011.  Also, get rid of that stupid pond to the right of 10 green.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Future U.S. Open Sites
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2005, 11:55:01 AM »
Mike

Walnut Lane does not have the infrastructure BUT it does have D'Allessandro's. ;D

Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Future U.S. Open Sites
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2005, 12:04:07 PM »
Long unofficial, Olympic Club signed an agreement yesterday to host the 2012 Open.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

THuckaby2

Re:Future U.S. Open Sites
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2005, 12:09:38 PM »
Long unofficial, Olympic Club signed an agreement yesterday to host the 2012 Open.

Cool!  That's obviously not on the web site yet, but I too had heard that was coming.  Methinks our fair state is well-represented in Opens, as is right and proper.

 ;D

Sean Leary

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Re:Future U.S. Open Sites
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2005, 12:39:03 PM »
Interesting.  I played with a member from Merion yesterday who said that 2012 was on hold until after the amateur to see if it could hold up.  Maybe it will push it to 2013, since the TCC is NOT a done deal...

Mike_Cirba

Re:Future U.S. Open Sites
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2005, 01:05:23 PM »
Interesting.  I played with a member from Merion yesterday who said that 2012 was on hold until after the amateur to see if it could hold up.  Maybe it will push it to 2013, since the TCC is NOT a done deal...

Oops...did the USGA pull the old carrot on Merion again?  

That's it...time for the club to buy out all of the adjoining houses in the neighboorhood for Corporate tents and 7,600 yards!   ::)

Jim Franklin

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Re:Future U.S. Open Sites
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2005, 01:11:48 PM »
Merion could hold a US Open tomorrow and be fine. Now the tents and stuff is another question.
Mr Hurricane

Mike_Cirba

Re:Future U.S. Open Sites
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2005, 01:16:15 PM »
Merion could hold a US Open tomorrow and be fine. Now the tents and stuff is another question.

Jim,

I agree.  My post had more than a little sarcasm intended.

But the USGA obviously doesn't think so.  The club has just about stretched every square inch out of the property (adding about 500 yards) trying to gain favor for the Big Dance, but I get the sense that's not good enough for the folks in Far Hills.  

I think they see their future out among the 7,700 yards of Torrey Pines, with ocean views for the Corporate tents.  

Jim Sweeney

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Re:Future U.S. Open Sites
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2005, 04:11:13 PM »
Tom Huckabee: The US Open is always the third weekend in June. I don't know if that coincides with Fathers' Day every year, but it seems to.

I'd bet my house that the Open will be at Brookline in '13. The centennial of the event that put the Open, the USGA, and golf in America on the map? I'm sure they'll do almost anything to make it happen. The only barriers will be political. Hopefully the governor and mayor are golfers.

The Open can be done at Merion. Don't limit your thinking to the club grounds only. There is space for the tents and other "fluff." The obstacles are huge, but if they can be overcome, the Open will go there, IMO. The test of the course will come later this summer, and, if successful, look for an announcement.

"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

THuckaby2

Re:Future U.S. Open Sites
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2005, 04:18:08 PM »
Jim -  quick google search yielded info that Father's Day was set and declared as such for the third Sunday in June in 1972... by Nixon of all people... I can't find when USGA started doing US Open in third week of June... it hasn't always been this way...

So who knows how this exactly works, but 4th round of US Open is going to coincide with Father's Day almost every year if not by definition every year....Which of course is such a beautiful thing....

My question is whether the USGA made this intentional connection...

Obviously this is just a silly curiousity.  But if someone knows the answer, well... it's annual beat up the USGA week so I'm sure they could use the positive vibes.

 ;D
« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 04:20:03 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:Future U.S. Open Sites
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2005, 04:24:38 PM »
One of the benefits of the U.S. Open's scheduling for the third week of June is the fact that this week has the latest sunsets of the year.

Thus, 156 players can compete on Thursday & Friday, and NBC gets a delicious 6-7:30ish timeslot to show the final round for better ratings.

Does anyone remember that the USGA barely got the Open finished before sunset at Bethpage in 2002?

JWK

Peter_Herreid

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Re:Future U.S. Open Sites
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2005, 04:26:51 PM »
Jim's got it right--think daylight, boys--even at the expense of potential thunderstorms in Northeast or Midwest locations, or fog on the Monterey Peninsula...

June daylight is a precious commodity to the mammoth field under those playing conditions and long rounds...

Father's Day is a happy coincidence, with lots of feel-good potential.