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Allan Long

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Is the Biarritz dead?
« on: May 09, 2005, 02:11:02 PM »
After a round of golf yesterday, a discussion of Yale came up, and I explained my love for the place. On the way home, I started thinking of some of the holes, and wondered why I didn't see or know of more Biarritz holes. After all, in modern designs you still see a Redan or Cape, a Short or even a Punchbowl. Why not more Biarritz holes? Are they not feasible? Not practical? Considered quirky or novelty?

I could stand on the 9th at Yale and play that hole all day from the different teeing grounds to different pin placements, and never get bored. Yet, I can only think of one Biarritz built after the 1920's (Black Creek). Is the Biarritz a design feature that still holds interest and should be replicated? Or, should it just be regarded as a novelty.
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Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Biarritz dead?
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2005, 02:24:34 PM »
I love Yale's 9th. I played there a few weeks ago, and the people in my group referred to the green as "a miniature golf course."

Unless a similar green is used (and accepted) on the PGA Tour, I think most golfers will consider the biarritz a product of bad design. After all, if the hole is cut in the front and you hit your tee shot to the back, you are left with an "unfair" putt. God forbid you should hit your shot to the right part of the green.

By the way, for all the people who complain about Yale's 9th, I'll bet not a single one of them leaves the green without taking a few extra putts  through that gulley just to see what it's like. And they all probably did so with a smile on their collective faces. It's fun and challenging and everything golf is supposed to be. I probably wouldn't want to see them pop up everywhere, but I look forward to my trips to Yale every year because I know it is the only place I will see a green as bold as that one.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is the Biarritz dead?
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2005, 02:32:11 PM »
Allan,

I'd say, unfortunately, YES.

For whatever the reason, it appears to be too radical of a concept for the broad base of today''s golfers.

And, today's architects are loathe to duplicate an easily identifiable template hole from the past.
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Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Biarritz dead?
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2005, 02:32:57 PM »
Rees Jones built one in his renovation of Seth Raynor's 4th hole on The Dunes Course of MPCC, circa 1997.
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Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Biarritz dead?
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2005, 02:36:47 PM »
A Biarritz green was added to PGA Tour stop Forest Oaks CC(#2, I think, a par 5, of all things) when DL III's team did their recent renovation.

Didn't Jeff Brauer do one at The Quarry in N. Minn?

The short par 3 at Bandon Trails has been described as Biarritz-like.

Mike Hendren once showed pics of a Biarritz green (not a par 3) at his recent-vintage home course near Nashville.


Bob,

Are you saying the green wasn't originally designed and built as a Biarritz?  I think that's what Allan is getting at.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2005, 02:37:42 PM by Scott_Burroughs »
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Allan Long

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Biarritz dead?
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2005, 02:37:31 PM »
Dan,

My first trip to Yale, nobody was behind us, and I putted for about 15 minutes on 9. But I do agree, there is no way I'd want to see them pop up all over the place, a la the Island green.
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I don't know how I would ever have been able to look into the past with any degree of pleasure or enjoy the present with any degree of contentment if it had not been for the extraordinary influence the game of golf has had upon my welfare.
--C.B. Macdonald

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Biarritz dead?
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2005, 02:49:38 PM »
It seems to me that another reason could be that the greens being built today allow for far greater speed so there is not a need to build a green as severe as a Biarritz.  Pin locations can be such that the speed alone of the putt will make for severe punishment if one hits to the wrong part of the green.
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Eric_Dorsey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Biarritz dead?
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2005, 03:14:33 PM »
Black Creek has a wonderful Biarritz.  I have a good pic if someone wants to host it for me.  :)

email me @ dorse72@hotmail.com
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Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Biarritz dead?
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2005, 03:17:51 PM »
Yes, Allan mentioned Black Creek above, and here's the
Biarritz at Black Creek from Ran's course profile:

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Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Biarritz dead?
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2005, 03:19:25 PM »
Allan,

As this is our first full season of operation at Angels Crossing you're more then welcome to come partake of our Biarritz on #6.  It is one of the most commented greens we hear about from our customers and continues to get rave reviews, as do the rest of our very undulating large greens.  The most common remark is "Your greens are so different, they are actually part of the fun of the course."  Classic designs and features will come back.

Cheers!

JT

« Last Edit: May 09, 2005, 03:21:49 PM by Jim Thompson »
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Jim Thompson

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Is the Biarritz dead?
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2005, 03:20:59 PM »
FatBaldyDrummer and I played one at Highlands Reserve GC outside of Orlando. Pete Buckowski may have a picture of the green.
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Mike_Cirba

Re:Is the Biarritz dead?
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2005, 03:51:19 PM »
Bobby Weed built a Biarritz green on a par five (long downhill approach) at Glen Mills GC, which works really well.

Jeff Matthai built one on a par three at Patriots Glen GC in Maryland that's pretty decent.

It can't be dead if they're still being built.  Both of these courses were designed in the past decade.
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Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Biarritz dead?
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2005, 03:59:17 PM »
I've suggested that the 8th at Olympic be restored to its biarritz style but I think most consider it too radical.  This is probably why very few have been built in the last 50 years.
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david h. carroll

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Biarritz dead?
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2005, 04:28:46 PM »
Silva built/restored a huge one at Elkridge last year....it is amazing and wonderful...so many different pins, angles, putts...I consistently have to educate folks about the Raynor style/template and the joy of the biarrtiz green as they often mutter "all it needs is a windmill...." :(
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Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Biarritz dead?
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2005, 04:38:26 PM »
To answer your question: No

Last year, I played Venetian Golf & River Club, in Venice, FL, just south of Sarasota. The course was designed by Chip Powell and opened in 2003.. The 11th is the Biarritz. Take a look at www.powellgolf.com and take a tour of the course. An outstanding hole and the course is full of other architectural features: Punchbowl green, Valley of Sin, etc.
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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Biarritz dead?
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2005, 05:19:52 PM »
Two I've played recently have been on par 5 holes.

#16 at Southern Dunes (Steve Smyers) is an example which has a small front tier, deep trough, and large back tier, all cut to green height.

Just Saturday Pensacola's newest resident, Mike Golden, and I played Perdido Bay Golf Club.  The 14th green there is a Biarritz with two tiers about the same size with a 16" deep perhaps swale through the green.  Nothing like as deep as say the swale at North Berwick's Gate hole, but aggravating when my ball stopped on line just at the top of the front tier.  The pin was cut in the swale.  Golden holed out from the far right end of the swale for birdie; I think this was a "can't miss" putt as the hole was cut right in the bottom of the swale!

So some architects recognize the fun of the Biarritz theme and are building modern even if imperfect models.
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Is the Biarritz dead?
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2005, 05:28:53 PM »
Bill Coore built a version of the Biarritz hole at Notre Dame, and I think on one other fairly recent course, but I can't remember which -- maybe Chechessee?

I actually built one about ten years ago when renovating greens on a course in Japan, Kamagaya Country Club north of Tokyo.  But I haven't built one for one of my "original" designs so far.  It's just too formal and symmetric of a concept for my work ... and I've had a chance to play plenty of them in our consulting work.

Oh, I forgot ... the 12th at Black Forest is sort of a modified Biarritz .  The front and middle sections are the pinnable areas, the back of the green has one small pin placement but is mostly there as a backstop.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2005, 05:29:56 PM by Tom_Doak »
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Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Biarritz dead?
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2005, 05:30:43 PM »
Quote from: Scott_Burroughs on May 09, 2005, 02:36:47 PM
Didn't Jeff Brauer do one at The Quarry in N. Minn?

No -- but he did one on a short par-4 (No. 5) at The Wilderness at Fortune Bay in N. Minn.

See www.thewildernessgolf.com/newpage.asp?id=130&page=1980

There's also a Biarritz-style green (with not so deep a swale as Jeff's) at Bobby Weed's 4(?)-year-old Stoneridge (mid-length par-4, No. 6), east of St. Paul.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2005, 05:34:25 PM by Dan Kelly »
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Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Biarritz dead?
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2005, 05:39:44 PM »
Here are the greens Dan's post refers to. The first one is #5 at Jeff Brauer's Wilderness course at Fortune Bay:

Though the picture is too small to convey the scale, the swale in the middle of this green is very deep. I love the green, but my sister-in-law, an avid player, hated it -- which is why, I guess, you don't see a lot of Biarritz greens these days.


This one is the 6th green at Bobby Weed's StoneRidge course near Stillwater, MN. The swale isn't as deep, and the center section of the green is pinable (unlike #5 at the Wilderness); I don't think I've ever heard any complaints about this green, though it's not as much fun as the the one at the Wilderness:

« Last Edit: May 09, 2005, 05:41:25 PM by Rick Shefchik »
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Kyle Harris

Re:Is the Biarritz dead?
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2005, 05:59:41 PM »
Not to bring up a four letter word but Rees did put a Biarritz "styled" green on the Par 5 third at Lookaway. I consider a Biarritz hole to need the deep swale in the middle of a deep green and also bunkers flanking the right and left sides.

The green in question at Lookaway has the swale but the bunker placement gaurds the approach.
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Kyle Harris

Re:Is the Biarritz dead?
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2005, 06:11:43 PM »
Would a green with a deep swale in front of the green/partially on the green and an approach bunkered similar to the biarritz green be considered a biarritz?

I am thinking along the lines of the first 1/3 of the 9th green at Yale being cut to fairway length... if so, I've seen this feature many times.

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peter_p

Re:Is the Biarritz dead?
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2005, 07:42:59 PM »
The 5th at Arcadia Bluffs is a Biarritz green ending to a par 5.
I think that most people haven't played a Biarritz green bcause there haven't been too many built on destination courses. North Berwick is the only one I can remember. Maybe Bandon Trails will change the scheme of things.
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Biarritz dead?
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2005, 07:53:03 PM »
As stated, I built two last year, on a long par 3 in Texas and a short par 4 in MN, which was pictured. I just did a sideways Biaritz in KS on a long par 5, where the swale starts in the fairway well in front of the green and continues through to the back and beyond.  This combats the geometry problems Tom speaks of.  The right side of the green has a fallaway fw chippig area, not unlike Augusta 3 on the left side.  So it is an Augusta-Biraritz combo.  Golf course design from A to B, I suppose.....

As much as I like the conversation piece factor of these greens, I am not sure at all they work play wise, nor am I sure they ever did.  As George Bahto has mentioned, the concept has always had its critics, namely good players who wonder if a full penalty stroke hazard (which the swale almost certainly is) within the green surface is "fair."  Certainly both the gca and the customer must have at least a bit of a sense of humor when playing these.

The pro at the Wilderness didn't like it at all at first, and said it would be likely remodelled.  At last reports, he has softened his view somewhat, and seems to actually like it somewhat.  In one sense, scaring the pants off players on a 340 yard par 4, because any shot they hit must be deadly accurate is a neat thing.  Using it there, and on Par 5's seems conceptually better than on the long par 3 to me.
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Biarritz dead?
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2005, 08:08:56 PM »
Quote from: Kyle Harris on May 09, 2005, 06:11:43 PM
Would a green with a deep swale in front of the
green/partially on the green and an approach
bunkered similar to the biarritz green be
considered a biarritz?

I am thinking along the lines of the first 1/3 of the
9th green at Yale being cut to fairway length...
if so, I've seen this feature many times.



Kyle -
I don't see why it shouldn't be, among Raynor/MacD
Biarritz greens, greenspace extending beyond the
swale is more of the exception than the norm. The two
best biarritz greens are a split Fishers, with only the back
half cut at green height and Yale.

But among the rest of their catalog, I'd have to say the
stronger holes tend to be the ones that aren't fully extended,
the one exception being The Creek. Although some of these
greens used to be cut fully as greenspace, a number of them
were never intended as such (e.g. Piping Rock, Yeamans).
Oddly, in an old rendering of the Creek's, it appears as though
the front was cut at fairway length, despite the fact that it
it is now entirely greenspace.
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Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Biarritz dead?
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2005, 08:23:30 PM »
 8)

nope.. wcc player #7,



looking from backleft exit..


looking from front right
« Last Edit: May 09, 2005, 08:27:47 PM by Steve Lang »
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