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Jim Bearden

Is it the architecture or another reason?
« on: April 19, 2005, 05:48:55 PM »
Just got back my posting priveledges as I was not on the board for awhile.

But I lingered recently and have noticed that there are questions as usual about issues regarding architecture, equipment and scoring. However if you look at todays pros there is I think one factor that goes above and beyond the above and has resulted in the tour being a putting contest.

I would like to hear some feedback and after some responses will give my opinion. Thanks in advance for your input.
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Tony_Chapman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is it the architecture or another reason?
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2005, 05:52:49 PM »
Jim I agree. I don't know if I totally agree with the equipment things and how this effects golf today. On tour, those guys are good and it all boils down to putting (and probably who hits it closer) more than anything.

I've often want to start a thread about why I (an 7-handicap) can usually be a guy with a 13 but he hits it 20 yards by me all day. It's because guys still can't chip and putt, simple as that. There is nothing technologically that can help those guys. You have to practice the shots.

I don't know if I answered your question or am rambling?
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Joel_Stewart

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Re:Is it the architecture or another reason?
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2005, 07:15:13 PM »
Quote from: Jim Bearden on April 19, 2005, 05:48:55 PM
However if you look at todays pros there is I think one factor that goes above and beyond the above and has resulted in the tour being a putting contest.


How do you explain David Frost setting a record last week at Hilton Head for fewest putts in a PGA tournament but finishing far back in the pack?
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Kevin_Reilly

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Re:Is it the architecture or another reason?
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2005, 07:18:42 PM »
Quote from: Joel_Stewart on April 19, 2005, 07:15:13 PM
Quote from: Jim Bearden on April 19, 2005, 05:48:55 PM
However if you look at todays pros there is I think one factor that goes above and beyond the above and has resulted in the tour being a putting contest.


How do you explain David Frost setting a record last week at Hilton Head for fewest putts in a PGA tournament but finishing far back in the pack?

He was 75th in GIR.
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"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Voytek Wilczak

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Re:Is it the architecture or another reason?
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2005, 07:46:02 PM »
The Tour's motto should be These Guys are Long, not These Guys are Good. They are of course good, too, but their length off the tee is scary these days.

Somehow I think that COR alone is an inadequate measure of the driver's ability to propel the ball far. Is COR tested at all swing speeds? Combine better drivers with better conditioning of many guys  (save for Daly, but he's a freak of nature), better balls, and you have reduced many tournaments) to putting contests on slick greens.

I really love seeing these guys play an important tournament in howling winds and horizontal rain. That negates much of their length. Golf as it oughta be... :)
« Last Edit: April 19, 2005, 07:46:28 PM by Voytek Wilczak »
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Andy Doyle

Re:Is it the architecture or another reason?
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2005, 08:12:09 PM »
Quote from: Voytek Wilczak on April 19, 2005, 07:46:02 PM
The Tour's motto should be These Guys are Long ....

Would make a great ad campaign on the Playboy Channel .....
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Jim Bearden

Re:Is it the architecture or another reason?
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2005, 11:11:00 AM »
Ok not alot of response as it is a much asked question, but thats alright. I think the biggest reason that these guys eat some courses up is not the equipment club or ball (though both have helped) and not architecture for the most part.

The reason it is a putting contest is yardage books. After Jack used one in the US Amatuer at the Broadmoor in '57 or '58 he was not called on it. After he turned pro Angelo went out everyday and did yardages and pin placements. Tour wide yardage books didn't turn up till much later and at the present an enterprising gentleman basically is the man for every tournament. In addition each tournament provides detailed green and pin placements every day.

As a result if you are hitting the ball well and your distances are given and you can hit each distance on a consistent basis the only challenge left is putting.
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JESII

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Re:Is it the architecture or another reason?
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2005, 11:22:14 AM »
Quote from: Jim Bearden on April 20, 2005, 11:11:00 AM

As a result if you are hitting the ball well and your distances are given and you can hit each distance on a consistent basis the only challenge left is putting.

Seems alot of IFS before it becomes a putting contest. The winner is probably going to be among the leaders in putting, but he will also have a great week with his driver and irons. Tiger notwithstanding ;).
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George Pazin

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Re:Is it the architecture or another reason?
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2005, 11:22:46 AM »
Jim -

Implicit in your argument is architecture that rewards stop and drop aerial approaches. Case in point would be greens that have a significant pitch left to right or front to back, as well as fairways that feed into dangerous situations like menacing bunkers. I think the right type of architecture would make yardage books less relevant.

Yardage books would also likely not be as crucial if conditions were kept firmer. Of course, the PGA Tour this year has been beset with rain, so this is admittedly rather difficult to accomplish.
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jim Bearden

Re:Is it the architecture or another reason?
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2005, 11:37:19 AM »
Quote from: George Pazin on April 20, 2005, 11:22:46 AM
Jim -

Implicit in your argument is architecture that rewards stop and drop aerial approaches. Case in point would be greens that have a significant pitch left to right or front to back, as well as fairways that feed into dangerous situations like menacing bunkers. I think the right type of architecture would make yardage books less relevant.

Yardage books would also likely not be as crucial if conditions were kept firmer. Of course, the PGA Tour this year has been beset with rain, so this is admittedly rather difficult to accomplish.

You are absolutely correct take for example Olympic in '98 where I think it was 18 where the ball fed down to the little valley and people ended upin divots or sand filled divots. The consider Tigers putt on 13 at ANGC where he rolled it in the water. However these are the exceptions rather than the rule. As long as we are pointing this type of thing out remember with few exceptions every course is conditioned in the same manner (except grasses obviously).
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