[PThomas]

happy Saturday

here's a course I can't recall reading about, but if it was discussed let me know and I'll delete this thread

anybody played this Fazio course?

[Joel_Stewart]

anybody played this Fazio course?

I've played it and its a 5.  Calling it a Fazio course is generous unless you know the entire history of the development.

It is one fantastic development, sitting on 20,000 acres.  The web site is http://www.santaluciapreserve.com/pages/golfcourse.htm
and there are a few photos.

[Thomas_Brown]

5?
I'm in trouble - I'm one of those that thought it was better than that.  Agreed on the Fazio design input.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

hmm reminds me of Cordevalle. It is a wonderful experience as well.

[Brad Klein]

The Preserve in Carmel Valley, Cal., was routed by Michael Poellot and then the holes were designed and strategized by Tom Fazio and his team. Interestingly, it moved up dramatically on the Golfweek top-100 Modern list from 2004 to 2005, from 80th to 51st (to an avg. of 6.90).

I thought it's rated just about right, as the course, setting and ambiance are very well coordinated and the variety of tee shots and second shots much more sophisticated than most Fazio courses.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I think of the preserve like I think of Old Head.  The site is so good, so beautiful that that the golf can't possibly measure up to the site.  It seems to me that with courses like that they have  to evolve.  I have not played it since the first year it opened.  The preserve starts poorly I think.  You can't hit driver on one  and the green isn't receptive and 2 is just an average par three.  I'd like to see what it will be like in ten years.  It is much better than Corde valle.  I suspect that in twenty years Old Head may be one of the best seaside courses in the world.  That is if the owners and powers that be are willing to alow the course to evolve and are willing to not only take chances but willing to admit when they err.

[Bob_Huntley]

Tommy,

Pray tell why you can't hit driver on one?

Bob

[Brad Klein]

Eckstein,

Thank you for pointing out this indiscretion. It's not within our sanctioned policy to make use of the facilties in this way. However, some of our more peripatetic raters are apparently all but homeless and use the clubhouse facilities occasionally to bathe and eat their one minimal meal a day. It's stretching the rules, to be sure, but under those conditions I'm sure you understand that's how it can happen. I don't have the time or the inclination to scrutinize the hospitality offered each rater, but it's certainly not something I'd recommend.

[Joel_Stewart]

The Preserve in Carmel Valley, Cal., was routed by Michael Poellot and then the holes were designed and strategized by Tom Fazio and his team. Interestingly, it moved up dramatically on the Golfweek top-100 Modern list from 2004 to 2005, from 80th to 51st (to an avg. of 6.90).

I thought it's rated just about right, as the course, setting and ambiance are very well coordinated and the variety of tee shots and second shots much more sophisticated than most Fazio courses.

Brad:
Its an injustice that you not mention Peter Stocker and Sandy Tatum.  Its their site and most of it was their routing.  The fact was the development was going to be a success with or without Tom Fazio and I would bet not one lot or golf membership was sold  because of Tom Fazio which was a total miscalculation by the development team once Peter Stocker was killed.

The fights between Fazio and Sandy Tatum are well known.  As a result, I consider The Preserve to be one of Fazio biggest failures because of his lack of understanding of minimilistic architecture which is what Stocker and Tatum originally wanted.

Also you fail to mention that you held a Golfweek outing last year at The Preserve which was the sole reason it rose in your rankings.  Full disclosure would be appreciated.  

[Bob_Huntley]

The Preserve in Carmel Valley, Cal., was routed by Michael Poellot and then the holes were designed and strategized by Tom Fazio and his team. Interestingly, it moved up dramatically on the Golfweek top-100 Modern list from 2004 to 2005, from 80th to 51st (to an avg. of 6.90).

I thought it's rated just about right, as the course, setting and ambiance are very well coordinated and the variety of tee shots and second shots much more sophisticated than most Fazio courses.

Brad:
Its an injustice that you not mention Peter Stocker and Sandy Tatum.  Its their site and most of it was their routing.  The fact was the development was going to be a success with or without Tom Fazio and I would bet not one lot or golf membership was sold  because of Tom Fazio which was a total miscalculation by the development team once Peter Stocker was killed.

The fights between Fazio and Sandy Tatum are well known.  As a result, I consider The Preserve to be one of Fazio biggest failures because of his lack of understanding of minimilistic architecture which is what Stocker and Tatum originally wanted.

Also you fail to mention that you held a Golfweek outing last year at The Preserve which was the sole reason it rose in your rankings.  Full disclosure would be appreciated.  

Joel,

Thank you for correcting what I considered a slight to the contribution made by Stocker and Tatum in the conception of The Preserve. I live about six miles down the hill from the club and there is about a 400 acre parcel between me and the 22,000 acres of the San Carlos Ranch, now known as the Santa Lucia Preserve. Many's the time I drove up the hill to observe the original gestation of the routing plan and saw them both walking the property. I am not sure what Ducky O'Toole's position was, but he also seemed to spend some time there.


Bob

[Scott Seward]

Count me in as a advocate for this course. The setting is as dramatic as any and I feel the course matches up. Too me, The Preserve should be rated slightly higher than Mayacama - another course in a dramatic setting facing the same design challenges as the The Preserve.

The Golfweek outing was held at Pebble Beach, not at the Preserve. I am sure some raters might have played, but its no as if the Preserve hosted a Golfweek raters scramble - but hey, don't let facts get in the way of a juicy story.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Bob, I guess you can hit adriver it just gets so tight that for the first drive it seems imprudent.  The Ass't I played with just hit a one iron to stay behind the trees on the left.  Has the opening with widened?

[Bob_Huntley]

Tommy,

I guess I am so short that I need all the distance I can get.

Bob

[Brad Klein]

Joel Stewart,

I discern in your tone some deep moral outrage. Don't let it cloud the facts. As Mr. Seward (above) attests, we had no such outing at The Preserve.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Bob, by the way I thought that it was very good.  It has some wonderful short par fours and a couple terrific par threes.  I just think that over time it will get even better.   I have watched other clubs i belong to just continue to get better with time, eg Musgrove Mill, CC Woodmore.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Joel,
Where did you come up with that?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Hmm me thinks a round there is in order now.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I am pleased to see some positive comments on this beautful course.
Iam fortunate enough to play there every year in the Stocker Cup, and look forward very much to returning every year that I am invited.
It is a wonderful place, a dream of very nice people, with the Stocker family amongst the original course planners.

The setting is simply beautiful, the course design I like, very player friendly but challenging enough as well.
The design is indeed an attempt at minimalistic principles that one feels became a little Fazio'ed and as such becomes a mixture of design philosophies......one can only imagine what C & C ...or...Doak....or Hanse.....may have done on the same property. That bben said it is most certainly worth a play if ever you get the chance...and a Doak 5.5 for me.
As I said..I loook forward to playing there and maikng the long trip every year, it is easily worth the time and expense.

The routing is very good, an easy course to walk.... although a little hilly....but not vast distances from green to tee.
Great elevation changes, and some wonderful green complexes, which can be rather severe at times.
The greens at numbers 9,11,14,15 and18 are particularly testing, but all can be punishing if you get on the wrong side of the pin.

I certainly like the place, and what a great clubhouse.

You guys heading down for the Kings Putter will have the chance to meet a guy called George Kelley, who was the best friend of Peter Stocker, whose idea the Preserve was in the first palce..but as many of you know Peter wsa killed in ahelicopter accident before he project was completed.
George is the owner of Stevenson Ranch, and a very good agronomist in his own right..very interesting guy.

[Joel_Stewart]

Joel,
Where did you come up with that?

Where did I come up with what?  Lets see, Sandy Tatum on the material facts.  

I stand corrected that Golfweek raters did not have an official outing at The Preserve but the fact is a large number of raters played either before, during or after the Golfweek outing/boondoggle.  It is the sole reason the course went up in the ratings.

I find it interesting Brad choose to question my intentions rather than address the issues and facts. I agree with Michael that choosing a different architect would have benefited the course far greater than what Tom Fazio did.  Thank god Fazios lake was not implemented and Sandy was man enough to fight him on every questionable idea.  

[Gib_Papazian]

Posted on another thread:

As for the Preserve . . . . . well. . . . . .it is a good golf course on a stellar piece of land in a magical, remote valley that goes down as the most horrible lost opportunity since the CIA had Bin Laden in their gunsights hiding in Tunisia.

Gentlemen, I agree that this is a "5."

It could - with the current routing - be a 9. What it will take (like Old Head) is a rethinking of the strategy of every hole and the insertion of a "look" appropriate with the surrounds.

With thousands of acres, this ought to have been the next Merion or PV. They had the choice of where to route and construct the golf course - knowing that exactly one was to be built.

I humbly suggest bringing in a Mike DeVries and turning him loose to give the layout some gravitas and texture. If you took away the surrounds, nobody would have ever heard of it.

As it is, there are only 4 memorable holes on the golf course. In the immortal words of Miles Davis" That there is some sad ass shit."

[Thomas_Brown]

Joel - I think you're mistaken on the outing effect.
My guess is they don't always produce positive results.

Gib - A 9 on that routing?
I can't imagine it.
It's still quite a bit better than a five to me.

The story I got was a lot of Sandy in there.
#17 for example - Given the topography, a great par 5 w/ a partial blind second - I've never seen a Fazio 5 like that.

A lot of the holes I really liked, a few I thought were lost opportunities.

I hit 2 iron off of the #1 tee as well.
But, I will note the course was designed in 2000, and my athletic conditioning is at least 2 notches higher now.  How could have Sandy predicted that?  

I thought #2 was a good par 3 based on its green.

[Gib_Papazian]

"Gib - A 9 on that routing?
I can't imagine it.
It's still quite a bit better than a five to me."

Close your eyes, give the bunkers some geometry and top-line texture.

Now, move them around so they nibble into the fairways, giving the holes some movement.

Place a few in the middle of fairways.

Blend in some mounding to make the approach blind from the wrong spot in the fairway but wide open from the correct one.

Install some kick-points to encourage run-up shots. Carry hazards with slopes on the back side.

Firm and firmer.

Redesign #10 completely. Yeeech.



   

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Joel,
My question to you was not about Tatum's involvement. It was simply your knowledge of the Golfweek rating. Do you know this as fact?
-Do you have fact that more Golfweek raters were that that paticular week? And if so, what difference would it make if they were there then or complete opposite time of year?
-Are you alleging improprieties?
-What's wrong with seeing other courses in the area while attending a Golfweek affair?
-Being that many Golfweek raters and non-Golfweek raters visit the Monterey Peninsula every year, why wouldn't they want to see a course in that area that is on the must see list? I know Golf Digest does the same.
-I know I would like to see and experience the course either playing it or just looking at it.

What's the problem here?

[Brad Klein]

Joel, of course I challenged you on the facts. I challenged your claim that The Preserve hosted and also benefitted from from "an outing," and I still do. In your limited logic, you attribute The Preserve's boost to the sudden insurge of Golfweek raters before, during and after an outing. That's a nonsensical claim, the more so because it doesn't address the real issue, which is how The Preserve managed to get on the list (at no. 68) in 2001 and stay nicely in that range ever since.

As for your other argument that The Preserve would have been more successful if Fazio had not been involved, that's a judgment on your part, not "a fact."

[Bob_Huntley]

In defense of the routing of the course one has to remember that although the total area is 22,000 acres, the majority of it consists of rugged mountainess terrain forested with giant redwoods and scrub oak. It was because of the genius of Peter Stocker in describing land that would have been absolutely useless for development, that he designated that "useless" land into what is now called the Santa Lucia Preserve. As an aside, the so called Trust Fund for the above mentioned Preserve has, according to several environmental groups, not been funded.

Gib, you hate #10..... what about #15...... isn't that the one with a long fairway bunker on the left, a sloping right to left fairway.... a depression in front of an elevated green....and a ski slope once youre on it?

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