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JakaB

World Class courses not on any list...
« on: February 23, 2005, 09:45:38 AM »
While killing the May River thread Mike Sweeney asked my what is World Class when it comes to golf.   It hurts me to attempt to quatify things by definition so I can only give examples....Starting off with a course I have never seen but have always desired to play and it being within miles of where I lived and worked for 10 years is Bob'o'Link and a course I played only once 20 years ago...Ventana Mountain....maybe it's cheatin since each has been on a list at one time...maybe not.   But at least we can be assured that neither will ever be on list again.  What are some of yours..

Mike_Sweeney

Re:World Class courses not on any list...
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2005, 10:04:26 AM »
I recognize that it is difficult to market aspault, but a little effort from Jaka and your Google does some amazing stuff.  ;)From www.worldclassgolf.com :

"Our job at World Class Golf is to make your golf dreams come true.  A properly planned and executed golf trip can leave one with a lifetime experience." I would further define it that the course(s) must be worth getting on an airplane for. Thus my list would include:

Western Gailes via MWP

Silloth on Solway via Ran and Geoffrey

Four Seasons Nevis - via myself - the views and the island of Nevis if not the course, but the course is pretty good too.

Cape Kidnappers, but that will soon be on a list.

St. Patricks GC, Ireland - via Johnny Browne to see what it could be.

Narin & Portnoo - via Ran

The Addington - via Ran

May River - Seriously, I like the look of that course, and I love the area.

First solo project by Jeff Mingay, I have a feeling.





Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:World Class courses not on any list...
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2005, 10:21:36 AM »
Mike gave my answer already, Western Gailes..I really dont think you can find better old style links golf anywhere..it really is golf at it's pure best.
No frills, no feeling of being contrived..just great links golf...I think you get the message that I like this place.
But seriously, when I go home to play, Western Gailes is the first tee time I make.

Kyle Harris

Re:World Class courses not on any list...
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2005, 10:30:15 AM »
Huntingdon Valley CC - I am still not sure as to why this isn't on any Top 100 list.

Tony_Chapman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:World Class courses not on any list...
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2005, 11:18:41 AM »
John - Is Tobacco Road on any lists???? I love that place. In your neck of the woods, is Quail Crossing????

JakaB

Re:World Class courses not on any list...
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2005, 11:27:41 AM »
John - Is Tobacco Road on any lists???? I love that place. In your neck of the woods, is Quail Crossing????


I don't know about Tabacco Road...but Quail Crossing isn't top 100 in Indiana...let alone World Class...not that there is anything wrong with that..

Tony_Chapman

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Re:World Class courses not on any list...
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2005, 12:40:46 PM »
Fair enough, I was just asking because I knew it was a Doak design (not that all of his are world class) and curious.

Don't you think the problem is, if they are world class that they get too much hype and will problaby be on some sort of stupid list anyway?

JakaB

Re:World Class courses not on any list...
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2005, 12:50:02 PM »

Don't you think the problem is, if they are world class that they get too much hype and will problaby be on some sort of stupid list anyway?

Only if they are very expensive...Do you really think a guy like John Conley is going to spend $20 in gas to get comped at a $15 round....the lists are top heavy on overpriced expensive venues.   I have a feeling that my brothers new course in Wyoming is World Class at $25 all day on the weekends....but I can promise you that you will find more raters playing the new Rees course they already know is crap because they heard Tiger just bought some property there.....I have no problem with comps...I just think they have taken any chance out of value becoming an intregal part of Golf Architectural Pundency...but then again...GAP is a worthless endenvour in itself..

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:World Class courses not on any list...
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2005, 12:57:07 PM »
Metacomet  (Ross)

Black Rock   (Silva)

Lookout  Point (Travis)    near Niagara Falls

Boston   (Hanse)





Tony_Chapman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:World Class courses not on any list...
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2005, 12:59:11 PM »
Only if they are very expensive...Do you really think a guy like John Conley is going to spend $20 in gas to get comped at a $15 round....the lists are top heavy on overpriced expensive venues.   I have a feeling that my brothers new course in Wyoming is World Class at $25 all day on the weekends....but I can promise you that you will find more raters playing the new Rees course they already know is crap because they heard Tiger just bought some property there.....I have no problem with comps...I just think they have taken any chance out of value becoming an intregal part of Golf Architectural Pundency...but then again...GAP is a worthless endenvour in itself..

I couldn't agree with you more. If you came to Nebraska, we could have a whale of fun on what I consider great golf course (most of them are by Jeff Brauer  ;D) and you wouldn't want to pay $200 for a round again. I'm sure there are a few of these places in Indiana as well.

Maybe it's guys like us who should stand up and fight for these places. I haven't played your brother's course, but from the pictures I've seen it looks dynamite.

Tony_Chapman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:World Class courses not on any list...
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2005, 01:00:45 PM »
Metacomet  (Ross)

Black Rock   (Silva)

Lookout  Point (Travis)    near Niagara Falls

Boston   (Hanse)

Boston hasn't really had a chance has it? I'll bet we see it on a best new private sometime soon.

Mike_Cirba

Re:World Class courses not on any list...
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2005, 01:01:51 PM »
Huntingdon Valley CC - I am still not sure as to why this isn't on any Top 100 list.

Kyle,

I couldn't agree more.  In fact, I played there last with a rater from a competitor's magazine (which shall remain nameless) that favors low handicap players and courses that are "Tests of Golf".  

As we walked off 18, he said, "why isn't this course in the Top 100??"


Chris_Clouser

Re:World Class courses not on any list...
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2005, 01:04:49 PM »
I've seen a couple that I couldn't figure out.  But I'll only mention one.

Old Town in Winston-Salem which is profiled in the My Home Course section.  I believe it is just as strong as the Philly courses that people rave about on here that Flynn did, like HVCC and RG.  There is only one shot on the course that I don't like.  This course is just a notch below Maxwell's top work at Prairie Dunes, Southern Hills and Crystal Downs.  The only thing that I think it might suffer from is the acknowledged "signature hole" that drives so many people's thinking.  

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:World Class courses not on any list...
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2005, 01:08:46 PM »
University of Michigan, great routing and excellent greens by
Maxwell or Mackenzie.

Gib_Papazian

Re:World Class courses not on any list...
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2005, 01:09:49 PM »
Unless we are talking about NGLA, Bandon or someplace of that ilk, I do not give compliments very often; the best anybody is likely to get out of me is the phrase: "Well, it is not COMPLETE puke."

However, even though the restoration has not been completed, Meadow Club in Marin County is my suggestion for Barnyf's list.

I'm the president of the Mike DeVries fan club, but it is not necessary to take this with a grain of salt.

Last week I had sad occasion to venture up the mountain to Meadow Club for a memorial service. The Godfather of my children lost his parents in the Tsunami. A hideous end to two people who defined class and charm.

It has been more than a year since my last look with Mike and the bunkering is so beautifully done that in my mind - it is indistinguishable from the work of Mackenzie and Hunter.

If length is a measuring stick, Meadow has no chance. But in terms of intimacy, texture, strategy and visual balance, despite its remote location, Meadow is going to appear on a few lists once everyone catches on.

The golf course always struck me as an enormous waste - a cautionary tale about rudderless tinkering, brainless committees and a membership too insular and arrogant to grasp what they once had.

However, the stunning contrast between the putrid remodeling mistakes in the past and the new green complexes make it obvious to even the most aesthetically challenged dimwit they are on their way to something wonderful.

"World class?" I do not know. The term implies a quality of grandiose gravitas, eh? County Down, Pebble, Shinnecock . . . etc.

Meadow is going on my "World Class Hidden Gem" list for golfers with finely honed sensibilities . . . . .  
« Last Edit: February 23, 2005, 01:11:26 PM by Gib Papazian »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:World Class courses not on any list...
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2005, 01:36:27 PM »
Mark

You beat me to the punch.  U of M is fairly well thought of in Michigan (many people have not played it), but that is where it stops.  Each time I play the course I like it more.  If they could sort the bunkering out, I think it would make lists.

I am most surprised by Carne.  This course must surely gain some recognition.  It is truly a great course.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Gib_Papazian

Re:World Class courses not on any list...
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2005, 03:12:54 PM »
Three courses that make my heart sing every time - and layouts I could call home and never look back or become weary of their charms (my definition of "World Class):

Eagle Point, Medford.

Saddle Creek, Copperopolis, CA

Stevinson Ranch.

I guess, although we have beat the subject to death, I am going to have to put Geoff and Gil's Rustic Canyon on the list.

It always come down to my tired old "Mr. Scott Test."

It is a sunny afternoon in June (or December in Australia), and you can have Mr. Scott beam you wherever you wish. Right now.

If it cracks your top 50, then it is World Class.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2005, 03:13:20 PM by Gib Papazian »

Paul Carey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:World Class courses not on any list...
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2005, 03:15:08 PM »
I have to agree with Chris Clouser.  Old Town Club in Winston-Salem is the equal of the great US courses  and is virtually unrecognized in public rankings (however I get the feeling that the membership does not care which makes it even better).  

I do think it made Tom Doak's "Courses Worth Groveling to Play" list which is a pretty good recomendation though.

I also agree Western Gailes is another world class place not on any list.

THuckaby2

Re:World Class courses not on any list...
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2005, 03:17:33 PM »
Gib:

Those are all great courses. But isn't every one you mentioned on one list or another, or has been at one point? IE Best New, Best New Affordable, Best in State, whatever.  

I'm very curious what you will name that hasn't appeared on any list...

That gets really tough.  You kinda have to go overseas.  They don't tend to make as many lists as we do.   ;)

Gib_Papazian

Re:World Class courses not on any list...
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2005, 03:23:48 PM »
Huckster,

I do not recall Meadow being on any list, ever. I could be wrong though.

As I think about it, Westhampton would make my list for its combination of understated charm and sexy surprises. . . . . . . I think the Punchbowl Par-3 is what did me in.  

Mark Brown

Re:World Class courses not on any list...
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2005, 03:29:44 PM »
Chart Hills by Smyers in England

THuckaby2

Re:World Class courses not on any list...
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2005, 03:32:27 PM »
Huckster,

I do not recall Meadow being on any list, ever. I could be wrong though.

As I think about it, Westhampton would make my list for its combination of understated charm and sexy surprises. . . . . . . I think the Punchbowl Par-3 is what did me in.  

Gib - I'm pretty sure Meadow Club has been on GD's best in state if it's not there now (and if it's not, it should be).  But I too could be wrong.  In any case, like I say, each of the courses you mention are great... and the renovated Meadow is VERY cool... but I just wanted to get you thinking more, that's all.  So thanks for the Westhamption mention!

TH

Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:World Class courses not on any list...
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2005, 03:33:09 PM »
Gib,
You are dead right with the Meadow Club, it is truly wonderful. The setting was perfect and I compare it to Jasper as one of the most enjoyable rounds I have played.

Tobacco Road is another great recommendation, for a course that I think deserves to be on just about every list.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:World Class courses not on any list...
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2005, 03:58:01 PM »
please excuse my ignorance, but where is The Meadow Club?

THuckaby2

Re:World Class courses not on any list...
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2005, 04:00:39 PM »
please excuse my ignorance, but where is The Meadow Club?

A little north of San Francisco, CA.

MacKenzie course, restored recently by Mike DeVries.  Work goes on, not complete yet.  VERY VERY VERY cool course, as Gib and Ben say.

TH
« Last Edit: February 23, 2005, 04:00:58 PM by Tom Huckaby »