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Jeremy_Glenn.

Ian Baker-Finch on Fazio's Changes at Riviera
« on: February 20, 2005, 04:15:47 PM »
Just overheard this on today's telecast:

"Fazio, in recent times, came in to add a different kind of playability, I believe"

Is that politically correct, or what?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2005, 04:17:25 PM by Jeremy Glenn. »

Brad Klein

Re:Ian Baker-Finch on Fazio's Changes at Riviera
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2005, 04:36:13 PM »
Jeremy, I caught that, too. Is that as critical as he's going to get? Most folks outside of a small circle will never catch the meaning of it, but it was welcome.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2005, 04:36:38 PM by Brad Klein »

Mike_Clayton

Re:Ian Baker-Finch on Fazio's Changes at Riviera
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2005, 04:52:06 PM »
Finchy truly is a nice guy - but he is never going to upset anybody - ever.

Philip Gawith

Re:Ian Baker-Finch on Fazio's Changes at Riviera
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2005, 04:52:56 PM »
I also heard the offending phrase - I am not sure he was being critical, but then I am not sure what he meant at all!

RJ_Daley

Re:Ian Baker-Finch on Fazio's Changes at Riviera
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2005, 05:00:04 PM »
Either Geoff Shack is in the broadcast booth with his hand up Faldo, IBF, and Zinger's backside doing some puppeteering, or these guys are doing a simulcast with GolfClubAtlas.  If you just caught the lads comments on the new extra fairway on 8, they didn't pull any punches.  Nick Faldo even quoted The Captain at length, for a TV telecast amount of commentator airtime.  Give them some kudos!
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

Re:Ian Baker-Finch on Fazio's Changes at Riviera
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2005, 05:05:08 PM »
faldo has had a few great contributions on architecture during this weeks broadcast.
Did anybody here his tree thinning comments yesterday?
He was referring to Walton Heath back home who have just completed n extensive clearing up programme.

I saw it last summer, and it really does look nicer.

Brad Klein

Re:Ian Baker-Finch on Fazio's Changes at Riviera
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2005, 06:44:10 PM »
The brief comments that Faldo and Azinger made in condemning the Fazio 8th fairway were devastating. Either Shackelford is puppeteering the whole telecast, as suggested, or he's right all along and now mainstream analysts are seeing it as well. More importantly, they're saying it.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Ian Baker-Finch on Fazio's Changes at Riviera
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2005, 08:00:22 PM »
 Juxtapose it to how Maltbie played the politically correct version on Thurs. & Fri.'s telecasts. Very Hollywood, smooch smooch kind of stuff.

Jeff Goldman

Re:Ian Baker-Finch on Fazio's Changes at Riviera
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2005, 02:45:19 PM »
I did not see anyone post about this, but Geoff was interviewed on the post-game show on the Golf Channel.  I did not see the beginning of it, but of what I did see, Geoff seemed to be trying to stay on the positive side by explaining the virtues of what G. Thomas had done.  I did not see a question about any of the changes.

Jeff Goldman
That was one hellacious beaver.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Ian Baker-Finch on Fazio's Changes at Riviera
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2005, 07:18:39 PM »
Jeff,
Geoff was indeed on and answered all of the questions presented to him quite nicely. I don't think they were really trying to push any envelopes other then maybe not getting more holes in on Saturday when it got really beautiful for the rest of the day and into evening. They could've finished the 2nd round with plenty of time to spare in that time frame, but it was too late. They had already pulled the plug, which you can't blame them. The forcast had called for really severe rain, and that didn't come until Sunday.

Geoff also talked about surface drainage and how Bell and Thomas utilized it to great perfection at Riviera.

PThomas

Re:Ian Baker-Finch on Fazio's Changes at Riviera
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2005, 07:21:39 PM »
I'm not sure what the hell Finchy meant!! :-\
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

peter_p

Re:Ian Baker-Finch on Fazio's Changes at Riviera
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2005, 09:59:56 PM »
Tommy,
This GolfObserver column from Geoff expands on the comments about what happened during the week at Riviera.
Drainage, yardage, holes 6,8,10, shotlink et al.
http://www.golfobserver.com/features/geoff/geoff_nissannotes.html

Michael Plunkett

Re:Ian Baker-Finch on Fazio's Changes at Riviera
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2005, 10:34:56 PM »
I have had the pleasure to met Tom Fazio a few times in my life, when he built Pine Hill and Trump National. All the money in the world doesn't cloak him differently then a down to earth guy. But when I see some of his re-designs, like Augusta National, I can only think of the SNL Jeopardy rountine when "Sean Connery" asks for the catagory "therapist"  as The rape-ist.


Lou_Duran

Re:Ian Baker-Finch on Fazio's Changes at Riviera
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2005, 10:59:31 PM »
Brad Klein,

Can you please explain what Ian and Paul meant and how it was devastating (to Fazio)?  I remember hearing the comments and did not get that at all.  Perhaps Geoff's approach is better.  At least I have no doubt where he stands on the issues.

Kevin_Reilly

Re:Ian Baker-Finch on Fazio's Changes at Riviera
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2005, 01:38:33 AM »
Can you please explain what Ian and Paul meant and how it was devastating (to Fazio)?  I remember hearing the comments and did not get that at all.  Perhaps Geoff's approach is better.  At least I have no doubt where he stands on the issues.

Since I Tivo'd round two, I was able to jot down the comments from Azinger and Faldo as Adam Scott hit his drive on #8.  Pretty clear criticism of the hole by Faldo and Azinger, after IBF opens by talking about all the options off the tee.

Quote
IBF:  Lots of options…3 options

NF:  I wonder what George Thomas thinks of this…they’ve cut the extra side of the fairway.  His original quote was "the strategy of the golf course is the soul of the game.  The spirit of golf is to dare a hazard and by negotiating it, reap a reward."  They’ve taken away that old layup down the left, which Zinger was saying was one of the scary shots on the course.

PA:  That’s the hole.  Honestly, I would lay up at night and think about how I would play that hole.  Now, of course, it’s a straightforward blast down the right side.

NF: Now to Tiger on 16…
« Last Edit: February 26, 2005, 01:40:45 AM by Kevin_Reilly »
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

PThomas

Re:Ian Baker-Finch on Fazio's Changes at Riviera
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2005, 07:28:57 AM »
maybe ZInger and Faldo are closet GCAers..... ;)
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Brad Klein

Re:Ian Baker-Finch on Fazio's Changes at Riviera
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2005, 09:30:37 AM »
Lou, I'm reluctant to comment directly on the Fazio work at Riviera and take a stand on it since I haven't seen it; it's been 1996 or 1997 since I was last out there. I never make critical judgment on work like that unless I have seen it directly. Shackleford knows the course better than anyone, and he's certainly not shy about explaining what he thinks and why.

I can only comment as an observer of the media in this case. It's simply clear to me that in showing how the newly restored fairway on the right of the 8th hole takes most of the options and alternate choices out of play, two world-class players appreciate that the hole is now less than it used to be. Didn't Azinger say he used to stay up all night in his hotel room fearing the lay-up tee shot on the 8th? Not any more. Sounds like a devastating indictment to me.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2005, 12:54:27 PM by Brad Klein »

Lou_Duran

Re:Ian Baker-Finch on Fazio's Changes at Riviera
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2005, 12:46:22 PM »
Brad,

I was under the impression that there was an alternate fairway there originally, and that it was washed out by one of the floods many years ago.  I also thought that Geoff's primary objections were the plainess of the fairway (lack of ground movement) and the position and shape of the bunker.

I am surprised that Azinger always found the left side fairway so frightning.  My typical miss is pulling it left with a little hook, and I chose the left fairway when I played it last year.  My subsequent shot with a good angle from just short of the faiway bunker was not all that hard.  My playing companion hit it down the right and while his second shot was shorter, I believe that his angle was more difficult.  Of course, that could have been due to the pin position that day.

I've heard contradicting opinions about how to play the hole.  Does anyone know what percentage of the pros hit it to the right fairway?  How about the membership?  I had been told that there is more room to the left, and that it was a better angle.  My partner had heard that most people go right as it is an easier shot of the tee, a bit shorter, and a good angle back over the barranca to the green.

BTW, I found the tee shot on #7 much more difficult and frightening.  I too would prefer a more barren barranca, but that damned long kikuyu is no picnic either.

Lou_Duran

Re:Ian Baker-Finch on Fazio's Changes at Riviera
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2005, 01:51:44 PM »
One other thing, how did reintroducing the right alternate fairway reduce the playing options?  I am not aware that the left layup option that Faldo talked about was removed.  Perhaps what he is really saying is that the "new" (to him) option is so simple that it renders all other options moot.  I certainly didn't see that right side all that inviting.  On the other hand, I don't play the same game as Faldo or Zinger.

With the exception of the location of the right faiway bunker, isn't Geoff's major criticism of Fazio's work on #8 more on the artistic merits than on strategic substance?

Bill_McBride

Re:Ian Baker-Finch on Fazio's Changes at Riviera
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2005, 01:55:54 PM »
Lou, I think the percentage of pros who played to the LEFT fairway on #8 last year was zero.  Zip, zilch, nada.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2005, 04:19:48 PM by Bill_McBride »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Ian Baker-Finch on Fazio's Changes at Riviera
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2005, 02:09:05 PM »
Lou,
The new ADA-compliant alternate fairway at the 8th is nothing like the original in both size and strategy. Marzaltov created a completely new hole out there with strategies unbecoming of the golf course or anything remotely resembling the architecture of George C. Thomas and Bill Bell.

There was never a bunker out there and the fairway was about 1/3 the size. If you owned The Captain you would be able to read and understand this.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2005, 02:10:21 PM by Tommy_Naccarato »

RJ_Daley

Re:Ian Baker-Finch on Fazio's Changes at Riviera
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2005, 02:17:46 PM »
Take a look at the link provided by Pete Pittock above.  It has a hole graphic of where each tee ball was played and what score was made upon holing out.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Kevin_Reilly

Re:Ian Baker-Finch on Fazio's Changes at Riviera
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2005, 03:39:24 PM »
Take a look at the link provided by Pete Pittock above.  It has a hole graphic of where each tee ball was played and what score was made upon holing out.

Here is the link:
8th Hole Shotlink
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Lynn_Shackelford

Re:Ian Baker-Finch on Fazio's Changes at Riviera
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2005, 07:48:03 PM »
Good job PP and KR.  I had not seen this shot link previously.  I am surprised that many went left.  One year I think Elkington was the only one.
The problem, Lou, and anyone interested, is the location of the tee.  It was moved when the fairway was "restored."  If you look at the original aerials or Thomas' drawings, the tee was in the middle, creating an option.  Now the tee shot to the left fairway is over or to the left of trees.
Now some will not believe this, but the design plan is for the left fairway to be tents for the US Open.  This has been documented in writing.  I think I and Faldo know what Thomas would think of all of this.  The work on the shape of the new fairway, which drains poorly and creation of the bunker are minor problems to the location of the tee.  So before Lou posts why don't they move the tee, it is because they don't understand, care about options or don't want to lose that possible tent space.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Lou_Duran

Re:Ian Baker-Finch on Fazio's Changes at Riviera
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2005, 08:24:54 PM »
Tommy,

Can't you just try to be nice?  I do own and have actually read "The Captain".  I also have Thomas's book on gca, the one whose cover you adapted for Geoff excruciation of modern golf and the USGA.  I am sorry that I don't have a photographic memory with 100% recall.  However, I will review the appropriate pages.

Lynn,

The left fairway fitted my eye better.  I am sure we played the back tees, but wasn't bothered by the intrusive trees you mention.  The proof is in the puddin', and it does appear that the right fairway must be a superior route to the hole.  Thanks for the input.

 

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