[Jeff_Lewis]

Played it yesterday.   I think Weiskopf does not get enough credit for the thoughtfulness and subtle strategy of his designs.  Despite clear signs that this project is struggling (its 2 1/2 years old and is still a construction site with no range) I found the golf course quite enjoyable. In particular there is a stretch of three holes that I found intriguing. 12-14.  Twelve is a mid-length par 5 with a completely blind 2nd. I loved it but was sure the daily fee crowd probably moan about that one.  Thirteen is a straight uphill short par 4 with an incredible green and Fourteen is the driveable hole, an interesting variation as Weiskopf used a very steep decline as opposed to his usual carry risk. Having played Shadow Creek the day before and been bored, I would much rather replay the Falls than either Shadow or Cascata if I find myself in Vegas again.

[Scratch_Nathan]

Jeff -

I know I risk offending you but I'm wondering if your post was meant to be humorous.

I played The Falls and thought the box canyon par-4 (the 13th? you wrote about) was one of the most poorly designed "eye candy" golf holes I've ever seen.  A gorgeous blonde lacking the brains to spell her own name.  The hole looks striking enough, but only a 260+ bomb down the left side of the tiered fairway gives you even A LOOK at the green.  Any other tee shot forces you to hit a hopeless hail mary shot over the edge of the rocks to a closet-like target.  I've got nothing against the occasional blind shot, but not one that's hit into a virtual pinball machine.  From the pictures, I really wanted to like it!  

I did enjoy the 12th and one hole on the front (6 or 7?) which had a narrow canyon chute for the drive and a diagonal wash in front of the green.  How about the 16th hole par 3 with the elevated pond that seems to defy nature  

The clubhouse for The Falls, on the other hand, was awesome with it's winery feel, great food and see-through "window" to the Vegas Strip in the distance.

While I've never played Shadow Creek or Cascata, I just can't imagine how you could put The Falls, which IMHO really only has a few good holes (not to mention the construction site atmosphere for the first 4-5 holes).  I'm dying to play SC and just from looking at the Fazio/Wynn book dedicated to the course, I just don't see how you could be bored...but hey, to each his own.

I prefer Reflection Bay over The Falls and the great majority of Desert Courses I've played.  Did you get to play RB?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Jeff -

I know I risk offending you but I'm wondering if your post was meant to be humorous.

I played The Falls and thought the box canyon par-4 (the 13th? you wrote about) was one of the most poorly designed "eye candy" golf holes I've ever seen.  A gorgeous blonde lacking the brains to spell her own name.  The hole looks striking enough, but only a 260+ bomb down the left side of the tiered fairway gives you even A LOOK at the green.  Any other tee shot forces you to hit a hopeless hail mary shot over the edge of the rocks to a closet-like target.  I've got nothing against the occasional blind shot, but not one that's hit into a virtual pinball machine.  From the pictures, I really wanted to like it!  

I did enjoy the 12th and one hole on the front (6 or 7?) which had a narrow canyon chute for the drive and a diagonal wash in front of the green.  How about the 16th hole par 3 with the elevated pond that seems to defy nature  

The clubhouse for The Falls, on the other hand, was awesome with it's winery feel, great food and see-through "window" to the Vegas Strip in the distance.

While I've never played Shadow Creek or Cascata, I just can't imagine how you could put The Falls, which IMHO really only has a few good holes (not to mention the construction site atmosphere for the first 4-5 holes).  I'm dying to play SC and just from looking at the Fazio/Wynn book dedicated to the course, I just don't see how you could be bored...but hey, to each his own.

I prefer Reflection Bay over The Falls and the great majority of Desert Courses I've played.  Did you get to play RB?

Scratch,
I spent some time looking at The Falls, and frankly, there were some things I didn't find THAT offensive about it.

There certainly wasn't much repetition; (like Shadow Creek) some interesting green complexes; (unlike Shadow Creek) excellent fast & firm conditioning; (unlike Shadow Creek, which is nothing more then a well-maintained forest with over-watered fairways) and a collection of holes that could cure a year of bad insomnia. (unlike 8 holes of Shadow Creek's front nine)

The strategies were pretty good; the routing, terrible and of course the views more then memorable.

Nothing so bad that bares mention for architectural incompentence but interesting enough to post pictures of the gimmicks that make it a very popular course for those who are easily impressed.

Was I impressed? No. But I was pleasantly surprised. It really wasn't all that bad.

Totally concur about the clubhouse. Great atmosphere and very nice people.

 

[Scratch_Nathan]

C'mon Tommy -

You put words in my mouth.  Well, maybe a little malpractice on 13 and 16 but I never condemned the entire place.  I only decided to post at all because Jeff favorably compared Falls to Shadow Creek and Cascata.  With the weaknesses I saw in Falls, I just couldn't see how that was possible so I threw out my criticisms to see where it would take the discussion.  Since I haven't played either of the other courses (which I know is dangerous when comparing), I could only comment on what I thought was a pretty mediocre Falls course.  Considering Shadow Creek's reputation and the photos, maps, reviews I have read which lead me to think SC is far better than mediocre, I just didn't understand the comparison.

Hope you're doing well and keeping as dry as possible.

[PThomas]

I played the Falls a few years ago and, at the risk of sounding like an idiot to those much more well-informed about the subject of architecture than me, definitely wouldn't describe it as "mediocre"...I'm thinking at least a 5 on the Doak Scale, what about you guys?

Tommy -- your comments on Shadow Creek are interesting...I could be wrong but I can't recall that much criticism of the course on old threads..I am not disagreeing with them, spe since I haven't played it...

and if one takes value into account, i.e., cost of playing, sounds like the Falls might have it way over S Creek

[Jeff_Lewis]

No, Scratch, no humor intended, but I am glad I can provide a laugh unintentionally. I would probably say 6 on the DS myself, but I was really struck by the contrast between the subtlety of the features at LLV vs. what I had played the day before. It was not what I expected.

[Scratch_Nathan]

Who knows, Jeff...after I'm gambling enough to play SC and Cascata, I may agree with you.  I definitely preferred Reflection Bay to The Falls as far as LLV goes.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I played the Falls a few years ago and, at the risk of sounding like an idiot to those much more well-informed about the subject of architecture than me, definitely wouldn't describe it as "mediocre"...I'm thinking at least a 5 on the Doak Scale, what about you guys?

Tommy -- your comments on Shadow Creek are interesting...I could be wrong but I can't recall that much criticism of the course on old threads..I am not disagreeing with them, spe since I haven't played it...

and if one takes value into account, i.e., cost of playing, sounds like the Falls might have it way over S Creek

Paul,
Jeff's comments pretty much coicide with mine I think. The course was surprising to me. The conditioning of The Falls (fast & firm, perfectly maintained turf that wasn't so green that it made the course look out of place in its environment) was just great stuff. I remember saying to my playing partner, Al Sharpton (The Artist Formerly Known As Geoffrey Childs) that I liked this golf course just as much--architecturally--as Shadow Creek.

Now to reiterate about the great Shadow Creek.......

Great place. A monument in engineering both architecturally and creativity.  As far as it being a GREAT golf course, its teetering close to the edge of Good. It sufferes from too much repetiton on its front side and even some holes on the back. There are some exxcellent golf holes on the course--especially for a Fazio course, but in truth, I think Shadow Creek falters heavily with too many mundane-put you to sleep holes. The green complexes alone--tough front and back, easy middle/amphitheater constructed/two bunkers left or right are repeated way too many times. I've seen the same ones used again and again and again on courses on the Newport Coast and inland Orange County. Give it a rest! At least give me something with some substance!

But what would one expect for the Faz?

That being. At least all 18 holes were vastly different on The Falls. Truthfully, I would play there again and enjoy it. I don't like the eye candy 13th either. I think its simply horribly misplaced strategy that should have been a lower tee so one could make a go of it for the green. The one negative about the strategies of the Falls is that its the same single-line strategy everytime. "Hit it here!" "This is the line!" There are options, but they are too strategically costing.

Scratch,
I too have heard great things about Reflection Bay. I'm going to make a point of going out to see it next time I'm there.
I'm staying dry and going out to play today.

Hope all is well.

[PThomas]

thanks Tommy...pls give S Creek a Doak scale rating...

I'd like to play someday, but yikes   $500 plus at least $150 hotel cost........

How much better is Shadow than Primm Valley?  isn't Primm built from the same nothingness that Shadow was built from?someone told me when I was out there that Fazio built Primm cause he was mad at Steve Wynn...

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Paul, SC is encamped firmly between a 6 and 7 for me, and that's a compliment. I'm not taking away any points for the over-rating and the over-hyping it has been on the receiving end of for so many years.

Shadow Creek is a very good golf course. I would be a fool to deny that holes #5 & 13 aren't of excellent quality. In fact, I would say they are the two best holes I have ever seen Fazio produce with the last of the two par 3's at Pelican Hilll-South being included in that list too. If I had to compare, I would say that Shady Canyon easily passes Shadow Creek on the fly, its that good in some spots.  But as an experience, Shadow Creek probably has no peer in the realm of Las Vegas and other parts beyond.

I have never taken the time to play Primm's two courses. I'm usually too excited about getting to Vegas and ALWAYS way happy to get out!    I'll probably be rectifying that soon though in the near future. I've threatened to myself just to drive up there and spend the night at Whisky Pete's, play golf and then get back on the road and drive home. Its probably only a two and a half hour drive from me at most. My bad!

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