Tom.....the seventh hole at the Patriot has Maidstone beat.
....maybe you and Wayne could play it as your're passing through.

Paul:

Glad to hear it. What kind of road is it and what did you need to go through with liability concern?

Cuscowilla's main entrance road crosses in front of the 6th tee. (You cross it again walking from the 6th green to the 7th tee, if that counts.)

But as to your larger point, I would like to see more modern designs use their urban surroundings. Roads, railway tracks, fences, buildings, signage. Those things are more natural to an intown course than trees and bushes. Spend less time and money hiding them. To the contrary, use 'em.

I would love to see a good modern design use, say, a gas station as the back-drop to a green.

Unlike housing developments, there is a wonderful randomness to urban features. And in a perverse way, they can be as beautiful as the heathlands.

Bob

 

"I think many of us far underestimate the impact of safety and liability in modern golf course architecture."

Mark:

Interesting point and all I can say is I certainly hope safety and liability concerns are not being UNDER-estimated today in modern construction. If they are one wonders why so few courses today do not remotely have some of the roadway juxtapositions of so many of the old courses.

I do know what the current "logic" of the law is today on this issue (because I did some extensive checking through the NCA with a whole laundry list of relatively recent safety lawsuits).

The legal guideline seems to be basically that the law assumes that golf is inherently dangerous and that any course must simply do "the best they can". This does not entail doing something that removes potential danger issues completely---the law assumes that would be an unreasonable or impossible thing to do.

It is also true that the situations on numerous older courses are basically "grandfathered" to a presumption that the courses "only do the best they can" with what they have (and with what obviously predates most of today's safety rules). If it were otherwise the law would require that almost entire holes be redesigned on various older courses and I think we all realize that is not going to happen---even in the eyes of the law!!

Just imagine what would happen to a course like Merion East if that were the case.

Mark -

As Tom notes, none of those features would be "in play". But you could sure as heck see them around the course. Bottom line is that you save on landscaping and get a truly unique urban design that is "natural" to is setting.

As a member in good standing of the Georiga bar, I continue to believe that the liablility issues that architects worry so much about are overblown. No doubt there are legitimate concerns, but the legal standard is not that no one should be ever harmed under any circumstances.

In my cursory review of the reported cases, liability comes up usually in the context of course operations. There is rarely liability found for a design. And if your insurance company tells you otherwise, ask them to show you the reported cases finding architectural negligence. I would like to see them.

Bob    

Tom,
You first used the words "in-play".  I guess I misunderstood what you meant by that?

I agree with your explaination about older courses being "grandfathered" to some extent.  However, doesn't that imply if a modern course were to attempt to employ a similar design feature, they would have a potential liability problem because they are not "grandfathered"?  
Mark

Help me out here, is anybody actually suggesting that a road of any nature crossing or closely adjacent to a hole adds to the value of that hole?

Also, I absolutely think the road at Maidstone's 17th can play some strategic role. Whether that was the architects intention or not would be hard to determine (was the road even there when the course was built?), but under certain circumstances you would consider it in your play of the hole.

Jim

Tom

I can't speak to National or Cypress, and I would agree with you in regards to the road / community relationship at St. Andrews and Pebble if I stretch my imagination, but how would the road at Shinnecock or Merion tie in the community? Is there something in the history of these courses you referrence (all except St. Andrews) that would help me understand this concept?

I would suggest the roads at Shinnecock and Pebble only take away from those courses (although not a significant factor) because they have virtually zero effect on your round other than the inconvenience of a car crossing your path, while the roads bordering Merion's #2, #14 and #15 and St. Andrews #17 and #18 play a significant role.

Would you agree that a road could be used strategically? I think the above mentioned examples are good proof of their possible usefullness.

Jim

"Would you agree that a road could be used strategically? I think the above mentioned examples are good proof of their possible usefullness."

JESII;

I guess I should amend what I said about roads being used strategically. Sure they can be. As you mentioned, the roads beside Merion's #2 and #15 certainly are used strategically as the best place to approach either green from is as close to them as possible! Merion's always called that unique design set-up "playing close to OB for the best shot" into varioius holes such as #2, #6 (drive), #7, #8, #15.

While things like this are true what I mean to say about some architect mentioning he was using roads (like Merion does) today in a strategic sense would be madness because at least he'd be raising a true red-flag!! Let him use roads strategically if he wants, but whatever he does he certainly shouldn't admit publicly to doing it!!    

Jim:

Matter of fact, even the best architects---even the very best from the old days who held TOC in a great deal of esteem mentioned (in writing) that the course, as interesting as it is, could never really be copied as it is (and by that they were by no means just talking about roads or the close juxtaposition of the holes to other non-golf things).

And in that overall reality lies one of the true golf architecture enigmas of all time!!! Here's the golf course that's supposedly the well-spring of all golf architecture and the prototype of golf architecture and even some of the greatest minds in architecture are admitting there's so much about it that no one would ever dare try to repeat or truly copy! Many of those men who admired it so much said TOC basically broke ever rule in the book! What book?

This is an extraordinary thing to ponder. Did even some of the best of them back then understand that the handwriting was already on the wall somehow?

The course I used to work At in St.Louis had a road that crossed the middle of the fairway. right at about 100 Yards. it was added after the hole had been there. it Is at tapawingo hole #5 on the woodlands. you can not get a drive to the road unless you kill it or hit the path. hole plays 440 and the drive is up hill considerably. the roads connets a new subdivision built on the course. it is a fairly new design. 1994

Here are a few pics of what Paul is talking about on the 7th at The Patriot.  The road is basicly not even visible from the tee, and given that as he said there are probably only 8 houses on that dead end road, not much traffic can be expected I am sure.

Here is the view from the tee of the short par 3 7th hole...

As you can see the road is mostly hidden from the tee although you know it is there as it also runs along (although not as close) to the tee area.


Here is a view from behind the 7th that I posted on a previous thread several months ago...



Below is a different view from behind the green giving you a little better view of how close the wall ruins are to the edge of the green.



I think it a great little hole.  Very fun, and the wall adds some intrigue not seen much on modern courses.  I am glad that in this era of hypersensitivity of liability concerns that a hole like this can still be made.  God knows you couldnt do this in CA or someone would probably just drive back and forth on this public road trolling for a lawsuit (and would probably win it as well)!