Sub-100 yard holes

« **on:** January 17, 2005, 01:32:21 PM »

There's a hole at the old Lake course at Deerhurst Highlands north of Toronto - the 4th, I think - that I've had a lot of trouble playing well.

It's a very short hole, less than 100 yards, perched on a high point of the property. The tee shot is played over a depression and slightly uphill to a shallow green guarded at front by deep bunkers and featuring O.B. over the back.

It's always been windy up there, too, which makes it key to strike the ball properly in order to pierce the wind and hold the green. [Personally, I frequently find it difficult to make a good solid strike from 100 yards using a sand wedge.]

Such a hole, in my opinion, can be a stern test under the right circumstances [particularly when it's windy, of course]. But, we rarely find 99 yard holes at "regulation" courses these days. Aside from the seventh at Pebble Beach, and the good ol' "2 or 20" hole at Engineers, where are some really good 95-110 yard holes found?

Rod Whitman has one laid out at Sagebrush (in planning) in British Columbia. And, Rod and I just inspected another site last week where I think the possibility for such a hole exists.

« **Reply #1 on:** January 17, 2005, 02:02:28 PM »

Jeff,

I liked the 100-107 yard 3rd hole at the Ventana Canyon Mountain course. It's downhill to a largish green surrounded by death and difficult to gauge for the infrequent visitor to the course.

I also think the 96-99 yard 5th hole at Fossil Trace GC (Engh/Golden, Colorado) is a fine short hole. A narrow, well-contoured green can be hard to find into the prevailing W/SW winds blowing off the Rocky Mountain foothills. www.fossiltrace.com Matt Ward hates this hole, which speaks volumes for its design quality...

« **Reply #2 on:** January 17, 2005, 02:20:07 PM »

The 9th at Caledonia is under 100 yards.. Steep walled bunkers front and back along with a small green.. Interesting hole.

« **Reply #3 on:** January 17, 2005, 02:22:29 PM »

Jeff: The 11th hole at Scarboro is a good example of a great short hole -- in the 110 yard range. Seems to me if the green is extreme enough, a good short hole can be tough and fair at the same time.
It is all about the green in the case of a short three. Even St. George's third hole would work if it were 100 yards.

R

« **Reply #4 on:** January 17, 2005, 02:27:35 PM »

The current 7th, formerly the 3rd at Pocono Manor is a remarkable 77 yards with a single tee for all.

« **Reply #5 on:** January 17, 2005, 02:28:57 PM »

Rob,

I didn't think of Scarboro's 11th. It fits the category for sure. There, you want to stay below the hole, which puts a premium on properly gauging distance. I like that.

Which reminds me of another point about such holes: it seems sub-100 yardage is frequently awkward for many golfers, good and bad, 'cause they're forced to use "manufactured", half- or three-quarter swings, which inevitably makes the hole in question more challenging.

Wayne,

The single tee for all! What a revolutionary concept

« **Reply #6 on:** January 17, 2005, 02:30:59 PM »

There's one at Lake Doster Golf Club in Plainwell Michigan about an hour from Lost Dunes dubbed the "little monster" It has water on three sides, plays downhill about 75 yards with a very small green. I've made 2 on the hole and 7!

« **Reply #7 on:** January 17, 2005, 02:33:14 PM »

Jeff,

Doesn't Crowbush Cove in PEI have such a hole? I haven't played there, but reports from those that have were mixed regarding this hole - unfortunately, I cannot remember why.

TK

« **Reply #8 on:** January 17, 2005, 02:36:46 PM »

I to love that hole at Ventana Canyon, the 7th at pebble will often play very little more than 100 yards as well..and we all know that into the wind that can turn into feeling like 150.
I love short par threes, not enough of them are built nowadays there is a great one at Pumkin Ridge proabably about 125 yds but just a super hole..sorry I cannot remember which hole it is.

« **Reply #9 on:** January 17, 2005, 02:36:50 PM »

Jeff,

Is there a modern course set up with single tees? There can be multiple tees for different weather conditions and stress relief. But are any courses being set up with a single tee marker on a given day for all classes of players? Even Pine Valley is going to three markers, I believe.

If there was a forward tee on 7 at Pocono Manor, it would have to be held aloft by a blimp. There's a cliff and a serious drop from the tee to the green. Maybe Mike Cirba can tell us what it plays like, but it must be half a lob wedge.

« **Reply #10 on:** January 17, 2005, 02:38:26 PM »

Rob, I agree that 11 at Scarboro is a dandy short par 3...but I also think that the immediate surrounds of a green are just as integral as the green itself, especially in the case of a "2 or 20" hole. The green on 11 at Scarboro is severe front to back but moreover there is no bailout and recovery is difficult to such a small green.

The 17th at Lakeview, a Herbert Strong muni in Toronto is one of the best I've seen. Super-small green tucked into a gnarly hillside.

« **Reply #11 on:** January 17, 2005, 02:39:48 PM »

Another beauty is the 13th at Merion..I know it os over 100 yards, but a super little hole that can each your lunch.
For those familiar with the hole, at the last Wilson event, my ball did not quite carry the lip of the trap..so I was balanced precariously on the lip trying to play my chip shot..as I did so, I fell back into the bunker..causing much laughter amongst my playing companions.

« **Reply #12 on:** January 17, 2005, 03:01:18 PM »

Tyler,

Right! Another good short hole here in Canada I didn't think of: the 17th at Crowbush Cove.

Last time I was there I think that hole played about 117 yards max., uphill to a heavily contoured green surface hidden by dense, native vegetation. It's sort of a skyline green as well. You can only see the flagstick peaking over the bushes. The hole sits on a high ridge parallel to the ocean, too, and is thus subject to strong crosswinds. A good strike with a short club is a necessity - every time!

Funny, I've heard so many complaints about that hole and it's my favourite at Crowbush Cove! I told Tom McBroom that once, and I think he thought I was nuts! [Maybe I am?!]

Matt,

I still haven't visited Lakeview; which I regret. Been to Toronto GC, across the street a few times, but haven't made a point to head over to see what's left over of Strong's architecture at Lakeview. I'll remedy this problem soon though!

Wayne,

I can't think of a course where there's only one set of tees for all today. Be interested to hear about one though.

« **Reply #13 on:** January 17, 2005, 03:48:17 PM »

Jeff

Little Devils like the 17th at Crowbush inevitably draw complaints. They have a way of adding insult to injury when guys used to hammering drives over 300 end up walking off an 90 yard pitch and putt with 5.

As I've learned more about architecture, I tend to agree with you - they can really be quite interesting - especially in that they let all levels of player into the game.

However, I think they can be a bit dangerous in that you kind of have to have a clue to appreciate them - Is something good if 90 percent of the golfers walk off spitting mad at the architect for "robbing" them of a great round with a "stupid little hole?".

I guess it depends on the architect and what he or she is after.

« **Reply #14 on:** January 17, 2005, 04:46:56 PM »

Very interesting post, Adam.

You're right, those little holes can make people mad! From the architect's perspective, that's one of the coolest aspects of such a hole.

Your point about them being dangerous in this regard is valid too. And probably the reason so few are featured at modern courses.

How long's the Bad Baby at Jasper? I know it's longer than 110 yards, but I think it comfortably fits in the category we're discussing - Canada's "2 or 20" hole!

« **Reply #15 on:** January 17, 2005, 04:58:56 PM »

Quote

If there was a forward tee on 7 at Pocono Manor, it would have to be held aloft by a blimp. There's a cliff and a serious drop from the tee to the green. Maybe Mike Cirba can tell us what it plays like, but it must be half a lob wedge.

Wayne, not sure if you have played it, but it truly plays like a 30 yard pitch shot.
Funny to see someone play it for the first time as there is no way to convey how short it plays, and the ball is destined to find the trees long.

« **Reply #16 on:** January 17, 2005, 05:06:08 PM »

Andy,

Thanks. I've not yet played it, but it sure looks like a touch shot if there ever was one. The only hole something like this that I have played is the 17th at Paxon Hollow In Media, PA which is about 115 yards severely downhill that plays like a 70 yard shot.

« **Reply #17 on:** January 17, 2005, 07:01:35 PM »

LuLU in Philly. The fourth hole (I believe) is just about 100 yards over a ravine to a green that sits above the tee by 10-15 feet. The green is just high enough so you cannot see the surface. The difficulty is that the elevation makes it appear that the green is much smaller than it is. In fact it is a pretty generuos green for a hole that short. Missing the green is a difficult up and down even if you don't go in the ravine. A problem I have always have had is trying to hit a sand wedge that spins too much and off the front of the green. A fun hole that a causes a lot of head shaking walking to the next tee.

Across the street the at Manufacturer's the eighth is 105 from the white tees. It is a downhill shot accross the quarry to a severely sloping green from back to front with the green sitting in a bit of a bowl. From those tees it is a fun shot. If the hole is cut in the front center the green works at the hole so a number of well played shots can get close. If the hole is cut towards the rear or side of the green it can be very difficult to get close and the shot requires a very soft shot with little spin. A lot of fun and a lot of twos and fours.

« **Reply #18 on:** January 17, 2005, 07:21:31 PM »

If you strech the requirement a few yards I'd add

- the #8th @ Rustic Canyon. I think it plays about 110.

- the 5th @ French Creek. I think it plays about 105.

Gil Hanse builds the best short 3's around right now.

Got a feeling the par 3 course at the Praire Club will be world class w/ Gill building them.

« **Reply #19 on:** January 17, 2005, 09:59:23 PM »

Jeff,
I believe The Bad baby at Jasper is most interesting.If you hit and hold the green,fine.If you miss and then attempt to hit the elevated shot that holds the green,Good Luck!

« **Reply #20 on:** January 18, 2005, 04:39:10 AM »

Jeff,

One reason why these little holes make people mad is the way the irons are made nowadays. The loft of the clubs were changed sometime in the 90's so that the current wedge has the same loft as the old 9 iron had. If you do not have enough wedges in your bag you have no full shot on these holes. I have also heard complaints from players that cannot hit sand wedges solidly.

BTW, I play forged MacGregor Muirfields from mid 80's.

As you say from the architect's perspective, to make players mad is one of the coolest aspects of such a hole.

Jari

« **Reply #21 on:** January 18, 2005, 08:48:51 AM »

Jari,

Another pet peeve of mine are all the wedges manufactured today that provide golfers with a "full shot" from sub-100 yardages. They make the game far less interesting.

« **Reply #22 on:** January 18, 2005, 11:10:58 AM »

Paul Carey mentioned LuLu’s 4th and Manufactures 8th – below are photos.

LuLu #4

Manufactures #8

« **Reply #23 on:** January 18, 2005, 11:18:20 AM »

Thanks Steve. The pictures are a lot better than my description. Two fun holes.

Paul

« **Reply #24 on:** January 18, 2005, 12:04:30 PM »

The #7 at Pocono Manor will drive you crazy. There really is only tee. The hole plays about a 1/4 sand wedge for the average length hitter.

What is really fun to watch is someone playing the hole for the 1st time. The tee is backpitched away from the green so you need to hit the ball and jog up to watch it sail down the hill. Behind the green is/was a large stand of evergreens and the next tee box. The first time player will hit a knockdown wedge clear onto the next tee, then reload for a mulligan. My wife hit from the front of the tee and watched with delight as the ball floated down onto the green. Great fun for her!!

News:

Jeff_Mingay

Doug Wright

Jfaspen

Robert Thompson

wsmorrison

Jeff_Mingay

Casey Wade

Tyler Kearns

Michael Wharton-Palmer

wsmorrison

Matthew MacKay

Michael Wharton-Palmer

Jeff_Mingay

Adam_F_Collins

Jeff_Mingay

Andy Hughes

wsmorrison

Paul Carey

John Foley

Yancey_Beamer

Jari Rasinkangas

Jeff_Mingay

Steve Sayers

Paul Carey

Bruce Katona