I hadnt see this list available online before:

http://www.golfissimo.com/html/web/Top_Courses/eurotop.htm

Any notable omissions or misplacements?

Has anyone played Bill Coore's Golf Du Medoc or Pete Dye's Domaine Imperial? How do they rate against the rest of their portfolios? I'm guessing these are their sole ventures in Europe?

Keith

I see where this list comes from.  I think it's very difficult to compile a European list because golf in Europe is very different from golf in the UK and golf in the USA.  Nobody goes to Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Germany, Sweden for golf.  Northern Europeans go south to the Algarve or even Turkey in winter to escape the dark, wet or snowy conditions (Florida and the Carolinas, too).  In summer they stay at home and play their own course in frequent competition.  You only know about Rungsted (CA Mackenzie, not Alister as in this listing), Silkeborg, Holstebro or Esbjerg if you have work in Denmark and happen to take your clubs with you, or you have family or friends there.  I remember picking up a Finnair in-flight magazine about golf holidays in Finland.  Has anyone played golf in Finland (there are plenty of courses)?  What are the courses like? I had no opportunity to find out on my one visit.

Rating the courses in Europe is a tough job, but there is a book out there which has yet to let me down. It is also pretty witty in it's unabashed favouritism towards natural links courses as opposed to modern manicured RTJ etc (note, that was modern, not post, or post post modern - which many of you guys, me included, are excited about)

Here's the only link I could find

Amazon.co.uk
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/2970008254/qid=1105234355/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_10_1/202-1470017-4676649

Has anyone seen Villa d'Este or Pevero? I know of one friend who gave so-so reports on Pevero, but another told me it was among RTJs best...

Les Bordes seems a little elevated, but it is very strong. Prince de Provence benefits from its exclusivity and perfect maintenance.

Is anyone familiar with Moscow CC?

The most exotic thing i finnish golf is hitting a par3 where the ball travels an hour!! Quess how it is done?

Tornio, right?  Do you need a passport?  

Jason

ps.  What is Nordcenter like?

Ben,
I haven´t played either of courses, but I have walked both during construction and lots of pictures as they are seemed to be the best courses in Finland. Everything I have seen is American, (Canadian if you like) Big bunkers, raised tees, everything visible, lots of bunkers. It is totally different experience than what we are used to in Finland. And also white bunker sand. I don´t find it so attractive to the eye. The cost for building these courses is said to be about 6-8 M euros per course. All the other courses in Finland have been build with less than 4 Million. I quess that makes a big difference also.
Both courses are tough, long and really beutiful. Thay are situated by a big lake andd travel through some forest and farmland. You can find pictures: http://www.golfpiste.com/kytajagolf/kuvagalleria/?lang=en and routing http://www.golfpiste.com/kytajagolf/images/kenttakartta_iso.jpg

Jason, you don´t need a passport as a Finnish or Swedish citizen, but I´m not sure about the others   but the officers at the border do not have guns.

Nordcenter has two courses both by american architects, Ronald Fream and Bradford Benz. Fream has also done few other courses here. The Fream course used the be the most diffucult course in Finland. Narrow fairways and woods on the sides. Nothing cleared under the trees. Hit one there and you woiuld lose it. It has matured nicely, and is considered to be one of the best in Finland.
The Benz course has been much kinder all the time. I think it is better one of the two. Demanding par4´s and enough of width so you have to think your way around the course.

The best feature of Finnish golf is midnight sun golf. For example 3 rounds of golf without breaks during midsummer is really nice!

Cheers,
Ville

Mark, as Ville states we have over 100 courses in Finland. You should come and play midnight sun golf in Finland.  In southern Finland that is not so easy because the nights are quite dark there even during mid summer.  But instead you should come to northern Finland.  I am from Oulu where we have 36 holes by Ron Fream's Golfplan.  He has designed also another 18 holes in Paltamo (150 km east of Oulu).  In Oulu and Paltamo you can play all night through from mid June to mid July.

The new 9 holes in Oulu were opened last summer.  I was supervising the work there and was the contact person for Ron Fream and David Dale from Golfplan.  We managed to make nice work there with very low budget.

The northernmost course is in Rovaniemi at the arctic circle.  The have only 9 holes there but very sunny midnights.

Ben, Nordcenter was the first "real" golf course in Finland.  It was designed in late 80's by Ron Fream.  The budget was very low and the site is very rocky and difficult.  The course has been voted by Finnish professionals as number one in Finland for more than a decade.  It was not until last year that Kytäjä course took that title.

Jari

Villa d'Este opening drive:



2nd shot to the 1st:


Pretty inviting !

Tony,

Yes, Kontiolahti has very beautiful land and I also think it is one of the best Kosti Kuronen courses but even it has too many blind shots.  I don't know why but nearly all Kosti's courses have several blind shots.  Some of them have even been done by building an artificial mound in the middle of fairway.  Of course it is ok to have some occasional blind shot but why on nearly every course?

Yes, I agree that the average Finnish course is better than Swedish.  Even though the budgets are not usually very high in Finnish projects they are even much lower in Sweden.  The average budget in Finland is about 3 m€ for 18 holes including club house, maintenance facilities and equipment.  In Sweden they have built courses for under 1 m€.  With such low budgets there is no fairway contouring, no drainage etc.

The biggest reason to have poor courses in Scandinavia is the lack of enthusiasm in details by the local designers.  Many of them are building architects who play golf.  They produce useable master plans but the detailed design for greens, bunkers etc. is very poor.  Also because there are no professional shapers in Finland the results can be very clumsy.  Yes, I agree the love has been really missing during construction but unfortunately it has been missing also during design.

The Nordcenter has been widened and it plays easier than it used to.  The reason for the early years difficulty was the small budget.  They did not have the money to make it as wide as it was planned.

After those years (late 80's) the Finnish contractors and also the project owners have learned the lesson.  Nowadays the courses are being built with better knowledge and the roughs are also grassed wider in the woods.

Jari

Tom,

In Finland we have only one course that has true links land.  It is Yyteri Golf near Pori on the west coast.  Unfortunately only a couple of holes are on links land and the rest of them are inland holes with trees.

I know only Falsterbo from Sweden to be a true links course.

In Finland we do not have many sandy sea costal areas.  The Finnish costline is mainly quite rocky.  I think it is the same in Sweden and especially in Norway also.  Denmark has lots of sandy coasts but I do not know anything about the Danish courses.

Jari

Tom, it does exist, 9 holes only:

http://www.golf-hotel-norderney.de/

Couldnt see any references to a named designer.

Here's a pic (it has dunes !):

Thanks for the link....Norderney looks pretty enticing.

Ville,  Thank you for bringing this thread back.  As it happens my wife and I will be in Denmark in early August and it may be worth a detour.  We'll have the clubs with us in the car.

Mark.