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Brian_Gracely

How often does a course need to be "maintained"?
« on: January 07, 2005, 12:53:15 PM »
Just a hypothetic question...[blatantly ignoring the players feedback about shaggyness of the course]

Considering all the courses that are struggling these days due to rising costs or limited play, etc.., how feasible would it be for a superintendant to not maintain the course on a daily basis?

For example, if the greens or fairways were only mowed 2 days a week, is it possible to estimate how comparible they would be to a course that mows them everyday?  Would this promote stronger turf, or cause more damage because you're cutting more of the blade on those days?  

And if this wouldn't create turfgrass suicide, is there certain aspects of a design (ie. fairway or green contours, types of soil, etc.) that would better lend themselves to this schedule of maintenance?

Brad Klein

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:How often does a course need to be "maintained"?
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2005, 01:05:06 PM »
Basic theory on greens is that if you mow off more than 1/3 of the leaf blade tissue at once you cause major stress. So on those grounds alone you're better off mowing every day rather than 2x a week, to say nothing of the grain, thatch buildup and moisture problems you'd have.

You can let the roughs grow, that's for sure, esp. if you select grasses accordingly. Most courses overmow those. And if you don't mind flyers in the fairway and balls that won't roll when they hit, you can let the fairways go, too. Of course the other way is shut off the fertilization and irrigation systems, so that instead of managing by mowing you manage by not growing as fast.

TEPaul

Re:How often does a course need to be "maintained"?
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2005, 01:10:20 PM »
Brian:

If you need to know more than what Brad Klein just gave you there, I can't imagine what that would be.  ;)

Mike Benham

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:How often does a course need to be "maintained"?
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2005, 01:14:13 PM »
As a side-question, we might want to know what is the standard practice, when money is bountiful before defining the minimum requirements.

I would assume most courses that have a decent budget use some sort of growth regulator to lessen the need for mowing on the fairways and roughs.
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Brian_Gracely

Re:How often does a course need to be "maintained"?
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2005, 01:17:21 PM »
Mike,

I would love to hear how Donnie Beck maintains Fisher's Island, considering that they don't have fairway irrigation....at least how much he'd be willing to disclose without giving away all of his secrets.  

TEPaul

Re:How often does a course need to be "maintained"?
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2005, 01:28:50 PM »
Donnie's modus operandi for maintaining Fishers Island is so sophisticated compared to the way other golf courses are maintained by other supers it would completely blow your mind.

The key to Donnie's success at Fishers is Donnie does a whole lot more of allowing Mother Nature to work for him while Donnie spends much more time than any other super in the world possibly could trying to catch fish!

TEPaul

Re:How often does a course need to be "maintained"?
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2005, 01:39:32 PM »
I know that Donnie's tremendous method is honest to God fact because I know the Green Chairman of Fishers very well.

He told me when he hired Donnie he asked Donnie how he planned to keep the course firm and fast and natural looking. And Donnie told him this:

"Well, sir, you just tell me exactly how firm and fast and natural looking you want the course to be. Extremely firm and fast and natural looking would be about a 1000 fish year for me. About half that firm and fast and natual looking would be about a 500 fish a year and so on and so on!"

And the Green Chairman said:

"OK, Donnie, if you fail to catch a 1000 fish a year you just might be in trouble!"

Jeesus, Donnie I hope you haven't read these two posts yet because I forgot to put a smiley face on it.

:)
« Last Edit: January 07, 2005, 06:33:03 PM by TEPaul »

Steve Mann

Re:How often does a course need to be "maintained"?
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2005, 06:26:05 PM »
brian-

if you have sheep and goats roaming the property the maintenance of the golf course is 24/7 in my book! ;)  

sm

Craig Sweet

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:How often does a course need to be "maintained"?
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2005, 09:06:08 PM »
Hmmm...we mow our fairways 3 times a week, but during the Montana Open we mow them Wednesday morning, twice on Thursday, Friday evening and if I recall, again on Saturday evening.

By Sunday they are looking very good! The lack of thatch build up is very noticible.

S. Huffstutler

Re:How often does a course need to be "maintained"?
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2005, 09:43:29 PM »
I would be interested to know how you detect the lack of thatch buildup without doing some digging.

curious

steve

Craig Sweet

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:How often does a course need to be "maintained"?
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2005, 11:50:03 PM »
You are correct. You would have to dig a little to see the full spectrum of thatch "build up".

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:How often does a course need to be "maintained"?
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2005, 12:19:25 AM »
I do not want to fill this thread with my limited knowledge, but check out this website..greenwaygolf.net....
This will give you some info on a move in the business to encourage optimal growth instaed of maximal growth..and as such less maintenance.
Some of the courses thie company deals with, are Montery Peninsula CC..Harding Park, The Preserve,San Fransisco Golf ,Stevenson Ranch..in fact the owner of Greenway also owns Stevenson ranch...that may be worth a lecture during the event we are having there.
Check out the website..quite educational.

TEPaul

Re:How often does a course need to be "maintained"?
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2005, 08:07:54 AM »
Since this subject of perhaps more minimal maintenance of a golf course is on the table I'd like to know exactly and technically why the following is true---

I'd often read that the course Alwoodley and perhaps Moortown and some others over there had fairways way back when that were sometimes referred to as "springy" underfoot. This was clearly referred to as quite a delightful condition. When I played Alwoodley in the summer (Sept actually) of 2003, a very dry year in England) those fairways most certainly were noticeably "springy" underfoot.

Why is that?

Donnie Beck

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:How often does a course need to be "maintained"?
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2005, 08:14:42 AM »
Brian,

I am not suggesting this method if labor is available, but with the use of growth regulators such as Primo it would be possible to maintain a lower end golf course only mowing greens 3X week, Tee/Approaches 2X and fairways/roughs 1X without any significant drop in playability. As far as turf suicide I think you would find just the opposite. I think this method would produce a healthier plant. By not removing as much leaf tissue the plant would produce more carbohydrate reserves that would create a much denser healthier root system. If normal aerification/topdressing practices were preformed and the mowers were all equipped with baskets I do not think thatch would be a problem at all.

Donnie Beck

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:How often does a course need to be "maintained"?
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2005, 08:19:26 AM »
Tom,

I got a big chuckle out of your post last night, but I did not have time to respond. I only caught 970 Bass this year due to the extra preparation for the Sanger tournament in the fall.

Craig Sweet

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:How often does a course need to be "maintained"?
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2005, 08:42:13 AM »
Donnie, I would be happy to swap some days taking you fly fishing on some Montana trout streams for some turf knowledge  ;)


Donnie Beck

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:How often does a course need to be "maintained"?
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2005, 11:23:19 AM »
I wish it were as easy as my friend Tom makes it sound, but the truth of the matter is that it is very easy to keep things firm and fast, but extremely difficult to keep things firm and fast and ALIVE. The biggest problem I see with many courses today is the use of too much water. There are many reasons for this. #1 being Job security. The golf course superintendent’s profession is a very volatile job market. Whenever there is a problem many clubs figure it is easier to bring in a new guy rather than looking at the root of the problem. I think this causes many superintendents to apply too much water. Green is good right ???? #2. Lack of skilled workers.  Maintaining a firm fast course requires much more labor than an over watered course. No superintendent can do it by himself. He has to have good assistants/interns/crew members that are all trying to achieve the same goal. Even the best irrigation systems have design flaws. The only way to keep greens consistently firm and fast is monitor them and water only the areas that need it though the hose. This requires a lot of labor. #3 Laziness It is much easier to turn on the irrigation system from the comforts of an air conditioned office than to get out on the course and actually monitor actual soil conditions.
Other than water there are many other factors that influence how a course plays. Greens are the heart of any golf course so I will start with them. As stated earlier I am a firm believer in firm and fast. Before attempting to simply cut back on water there are many issues that have to be addressed first. First and foremost thatch has to be dealt with. A little thatch is beneficial, but too much is a recipe for disaster. Too much thatch will produce a soft spongy green that is prone to insect, disease, and mower damage. Think of thatch as a sponge. Thatch forms just under the playing surface. With thatch present it is impossible to properly water greens. (Deep and infrequent) Grass roots will grow to the depth of water. So under ideal conditions it is best to water greens heavily once per week and thoroughly fill the soil profile. The profile will dry from top to bottom and the plant roots will grow deeper trying to find water producing a healthier plant. With too much thatch present the water will be trapped in the first inch of the soil profile resulting in a weaker root system that will cause the plant to wilt much easier and require more frequent watering. There is no easy way to remove thatch once it is established. There are many new tools that are helpful such as the newer generation vertical mowers (Graden), but nothing replaces core aerification. In most cases it likely that greens will need to be core aerified a minimum of twice a year once in the spring and once in the fall. Deep vertical mowing should be done another 2-3 times per year if a lot of thatch is present. It may take several years to get thatch levels reduced to achieve optimum playing conditions.
Once thatch levels are in check there are many steps still required to produce smooth greens. I am a firm believer in a light frequent topdressing program. I favor biweekly topdressing of about 1/16 of an inch. This light topdressing has been made possible in recent years with the development of new spinner topdressers. I have found any heavier than a 1/16 of an inch you will run into problems with destroying bedknifes, but that is an entirely different subject I could spend hours on. Once a month before topdressing I would recommend a very light vertical mowing in two directions to trim any runners. I have found that brushing greens after topdressing also help stand up the plant producing a more consistent putting surface.
Next I would strongly recommend the mowing of greens with walking mowers. Walking is a little more time consuming, but I have found the benefits far out weigh the additional costs. Mowing greens with a triplex all the weight of the equipment and operator are distributed on the wheels of the machine and the reels float across the surface. This causes 3 minor ruts each pass across the surface. By using a walking mower all the weight of the machine is distributed across the rear roller of the machine causing a smoothing rolling effect. Most importantly triplex mowers require a wide area to turn in or they cause significant damage to the turf. Walkers were the only mowers available when all classical courses were designed and as a result many older greens extended all the way to edge of pad and in some cases extended over the edge. The only way to fully restore an older design is to go back to the walking mower.

« Last Edit: January 08, 2005, 11:40:14 AM by Donnie Beck »

Joe Hancock

  • Total Karma: 5
Re:How often does a course need to be "maintained"?
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2005, 11:31:23 AM »
Donnie,

That's cut and paste materiel. Good job.

I think it's time to start another supers association. It would be for those that subscribe to and apply the principles you just outlined. ;D

Now, for a cool acronym....hmmmm.....

BAD  Super's ( Brown Ain't Dead)? .....this will take some time...and beer....

Joe

" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Donnie Beck

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:How often does a course need to be "maintained"?
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2005, 11:44:22 AM »
Thanks Joe,

I could go on and on and on, but I didn't want to bore everyone to death. If there is any interest I could write pages and pages.

TEPaul

Re:How often does a course need to be "maintained"?
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2005, 11:48:36 AM »
Donnie:

Every so often (very infrequently though, unfortunately) a post pops up on here that's PRINTABLE for all time reference. That last post of yours is most definitely one of them, maybe one of the best ever.

Thank you very much.

I do have a number of questions, though, if you don't mind. Not disagreeing with anythng just a few things I don't understand that well. And I'd also like to know if the same basic maintenance prinicples apply to the maintenance of fairways. I'd think it must since it's all grass, although obviously perhaps much less sophisticated grass than the specialized green strains.

TEPaul

Re:How often does a course need to be "maintained"?
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2005, 11:52:29 AM »
"If there is any interest I could write pages and pages."

Are you kidding, there sure is on my part but I don't want you to feel you need to write half a book on my account. If you do keep writing, though, it sure would help if you'd remark when you think some of the things you're saying only apply to a locale like Fishers Island and its particular soil conditions and when the practices used there might not work elsewhere, like the Philly area, and why.

Donnie Beck

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:How often does a course need to be "maintained"?
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2005, 11:56:38 AM »
Tom, I original idea was to go through the entire course, but I started to see it was going to get lengthy in a hurry. I might sit down this afternoon and write out my philosophies even if just for my own good.

Craig....  DEAL  I haven't been trout fishing in years.

TEPaul

Re:How often does a course need to be "maintained"?
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2005, 12:05:03 PM »
"I only caught 970 Bass this year due....."

Uh-oh! Bummer! I hope that doesn't get you in trouble. Is there any possiblity you could just borrow or buy 30 bass so I can tell what's his name that you had a 1000 fish year and that consequently everything is right with the golf course?

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:How often does a course need to be "maintained"?
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2005, 12:32:11 PM »
Great post Donnie, thank you very much.
All of the info, goes along with what I have been reading, a more minimal approach to greenkeeping which may be optimal but not acceptable to many members, either due to expense or appearance of the course.
I have been reading about the methods used on the sandbelt of Melbourne, and they seem to use alot less fertilizers than the modern American course.

Craig Sweet

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:How often does a course need to be "maintained"?
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2005, 12:55:12 PM »
Donnie, as a 52 year old newcomer to golf course maintenence, and someone eager to learn, I find what you say fascinating and wonder how applicable it is to the high and dry Rocky Mountains where I work. We also do over 55,000 rounds a year, and I wonder how this philosophy would work under that kind of play.