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Brian_Gracely

Why does the NGLA windmill get a free pass?
« on: January 05, 2005, 09:17:53 AM »
If Trump, Fazio, R.Jones or Ted Robinson were to build a non-functional windmill on any of their courses, it would be GCA fodder on a daily basis.  So why does NGLA get a free pass on this?  And don't give me the "it just fits the place" argument....are there other non-functional windfalls dotting the Long Island landscape?    
« Last Edit: January 05, 2005, 09:28:48 AM by Brian_Gracely »
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Andy Hughes

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Re:Why does the NGLA windmill get a free pass?
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2005, 09:20:15 AM »
Geez Brian. Duh! ;) Two things are required, and then you can get away with anything.
1. Course must be very, very good
2. The oddity must have been there for a long time
Kinda like the 'rail sheds' on the Road Hole
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RE Blanks

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why does the NGLA windmill get a free pass?
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2005, 09:27:01 AM »
I didn't know it was a fake.  When was it constructed?  
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Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Why does the NGLA windmill get a free pass?
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2005, 09:32:02 AM »
I assumed it was there before the course was.
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JDoyle

Re:Why does the NGLA windmill get a free pass?
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2005, 10:23:47 AM »
The windmill has been "grandfathered" in and is above question.  If the Washington Nationals built a new ballpark with 30 foot left field wall that was so close that fly balls turned into doubles they would be the joke of baseball (even more than they presently are).  However, 400 hundred miles up 95 and the same thing is a landmark.
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Mike Nuzzo

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Re:Why does the NGLA windmill get a free pass?
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2005, 10:27:18 AM »
The story of how it was added is rather funny.
Read the Book.
Brian - that may be why it is more accepted, the intent behind the added feature.
Cheers
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Mike_Sweeney

Re:Why does the NGLA windmill get a free pass?
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2005, 10:34:03 AM »
Quote from: Brian_Gracely on January 05, 2005, 09:17:53 AM
are there other non-functional windfalls dotting the Long Island landscape?    

Yes, one in East Hampton near the town cross roads, at least two in Water Mill, and I believe there is also one at the Southampton Historical Museum.

Southampton GC's logo is a Wind Mill.
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TEPaul

Re:Why does the NGLA windmill get a free pass?
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2005, 10:34:26 AM »
"Was the NGLA windmill originally used as an aiming point for a blind shot on #2 or #16?"

Jeeesus. If you aimed at the windmill on #2 or even #16 the chances are pretty good you may not play those holes very well. ;) I took a very close look in that windmill a couple of years ago when we were inside it waiting to figure out what to do in a sudden really strong rain storm. What was it's function? If you ask me I thought I could see some vestiges of a torture chamber Macdonald may have used for people who didn't agree with him!  
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ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why does the NGLA windmill get a free pass?
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2005, 10:57:16 AM »
As Mike noted, its in the Bahto book. My recollection is that there was a water tower there and so they put a windmill over it. I would think the windmill looks better than a water tower. Certainly they don't need it today, but at this point its an icon. And no Trump waterfall will EVER become that.
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Top100Guru

Re:Why does the NGLA windmill get a free pass?
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2005, 11:04:02 AM »
I wonder if the Fossil Remains and imprints from millions of years ago are looked upon disfavorably at that course out west...Fossil Trace or something like that?????  LOL
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Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why does the NGLA windmill get a free pass?
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2005, 11:20:31 AM »
Quote
After NBC sells out and forces the USGA's hand at the next contract negotiation and requires it hold the US Open at Trump National <insert_location_here>, then 25yrs from now we'll be singing the praises of a waterfall?
Not sure aout "we", but who knows what the GCAers will grant a free pass to in 25 years?
Also not sure 25 years is enough to qualify under the 'long time' requirement.

Quote
And I don't buy the Old Course railway shed argument....they originally served a valid purpose and aren't on the course.  
Yeah, but they play[/b like they're on the course and that's what matters.  They are considered a grand feature on the hole, but if they were installed tomorrow they would be utterly cried down.
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"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

ForkaB

Re:Why does the NGLA windmill get a free pass?
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2005, 12:28:29 PM »
http://www.aafla.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1915/gi42k.pdf

See the link above for what NGLA looked like before the windmill.  I think we are talking serious water tower eye pollution here........
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Punchbowl

Re:Why does the NGLA windmill get a free pass?
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2005, 01:35:12 PM »
The windmill was originally used to help water the course...
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ChipRoyce

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Re:Why does the NGLA windmill get a free pass?
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2005, 01:41:14 PM »
Yes, there is another non-functional windmill on a course on Long Island.

The club I grew up at, Southward Ho C.C., in Bay Shore not only has one on the right side of the fairway on its Par 5 10th hole, it is also considered integral to the course and one cannot take relief without penalty. I've hit many a punch shot out from under it.

The windmill is also this Tillinghast layout's logo.
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George_Bahto

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Re:Why does the NGLA windmill get a free pass?
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2005, 02:35:58 PM »
the water tower was not too attractive so when CB's friend Dan Pomeroy (Conde Nast) suggested a windmill built over the top of it would looke better ...... here is the sidebar from The Evangelis of Golf:

* * *

"The National Golf Links’ Windmill"

         Dan Pomeroy, president of publishing giant Conde Nast, and one of National's original associate members, remarked to Macdonald one day in the bar that rather than a rudimentary water tank then in place, how much more aesthetically appealing it would be if a windmill were built over the water tower.
        "Excellent suggestion," replied old C.B., who in short order had the new structure designed and built.
        To a man, the membership was thrilled with this stately new 50 foot windmill, sitting proudly atop high land between the 2nd and 16th holes.  It could be seen for miles around, and faced towards the yacht harbor where members frequently sailed in for an afternoon of golf.
        The day following completion, Dan Pomeroy found an example of Macdonald's autocratic rule waiting in his locker - the bill for his bright idea!


gb
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why does the NGLA windmill get a free pass?
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2005, 02:52:15 PM »
.... and now even the tree is now gone, thnks to chainsaw-salinetti and crew ....

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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why does the NGLA windmill get a free pass?
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2005, 04:28:14 PM »
Next thing you know, we'll find out Coore and Crenshaw built that windmill left of Sand Hills 18!

As for serious windmill eye pollution:



Can you imagine the uproar if THIS was the plan for Nantucket Sound?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2005, 05:30:04 PM by Dan Kelly »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why does the NGLA windmill get a free pass?
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2005, 05:26:48 PM »
Brian Gracely,

As Mike Sweeney pointed out, there are other non-functioning windmills in that area.  One only has to drive route 27 to see a few of them, hence, they seem to be indigenous to the area, and not an unusual feature.

Secondly, it served a very practical purpose and has been there almost as long as the golf course.

Thirdly, the windmill has a bit of history to it.
Perhaps George Bahto can describe its alteration during World War II when German U-Boats used to use it for sighting/reference as they cruised Long Island Sound.

It's a neat fit.
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paul cowley

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Re:Why does the NGLA windmill get a free pass?
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2005, 05:48:23 PM »
....windmills ,faux waterfalls etc. are all the same ....if they aren't involved in the strategic fabric of the hole , they might as well be a snarling 50' T-Rex.

....or , if done well , do they add to the aesthetic value of a hole ?

....or , if done well and designed and incorporated strategically in a hole , do they add aesthetic AND shot values ?........man ,this is really confusing.
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

George_Bahto

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Re:Why does the NGLA windmill get a free pass?
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2005, 05:57:09 PM »
personally, I like the original water tower - it was there for a reason and served its purpose well ......   I have a few pictures of it around so,eplece in the files.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

TEPaul

Re:Why does the NGLA windmill get a free pass?
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2005, 06:01:46 PM »
"The windmill was originally used to help water the course... "

Gil:

That must have been the case, From the sounds of some of the initial agronomy problems that course had, probably because way back then apparently Macdonald hadn't exactly figured out the necessity of a basic water retention medium of zillions of truckloads of topsoil and manure or whatever and initially in that super straight sand soil medium the water he was dumping on the course was probably about half way to China in around 15 minutes!  :)

At least that's sort of the way Piper or Oakley seemed to explain it to Hugh Wilson about NGLA in those "agronomy letters".
« Last Edit: January 05, 2005, 06:03:08 PM by TEPaul »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why does the NGLA windmill get a free pass?
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2005, 07:41:56 PM »
Paul Cowley,

NGLA's windmill has nothing to do with strategic incorporation on any hole on the golf course, although I've seen a tee shot or two on the second hole bounce off it, with one ending up inside the windmill.
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paul cowley

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Re:Why does the NGLA windmill get a free pass?
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2005, 08:07:10 PM »
Pat ....I knew that , which is why I put it in point one or two of my post....just trolling for others on the bigger picture.

and its good to pass posts ...happy new year :)
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why does the NGLA windmill get a free pass?
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2005, 10:28:17 AM »
Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on January 05, 2005, 05:26:48 PM
Brian Gracely,

As Mike Sweeney pointed out, there are other non-functioning windmills in that area.  One only has to drive route 27 to see a few of them, hence, they seem to be indigenous to the area, and not an unusual feature.

It's a neat fit.

I'll agree with Pat and take it a step further; it fits in with the surrounding area, the unique flavor of the Hamptons and Eastern LI.  

In comparison, my feeling is that the waterfall in Briarcliff Manor, for one example looks out of place where it is.  
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Punchbowl

Re:Why does the NGLA windmill get a free pass?
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2005, 04:51:57 PM »
As you can see if you go inside...It was a working windmill when it was built...It was used to pump water...
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