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Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is this lazy architecture?
« on: December 29, 2004, 04:14:31 PM »
I went for a jog around a closed course Christmas day. One hole design stuck with me and upon my return I asked my brothers/Dad their thoughts on it. The Morrissett family is now deeply - and bitterly  8) - divided on the issue and so we turn to this DG for clarity (or to Tom Paul for claret ;)).

The generalities of the hole are: par four, 430 yards, the playing corridor itself is through trees and is mostly straight with out of bounds down the left. The green is set at a ~ 30 degree angle to the fairway and runs from front left to back right. The green complex is a modified reverse redan with the usual bunkering. In short, the closer one drives toward the OB, the better the angle into the green.

So far, so good.

Now the plot thickens. Protruding in from the right edge of the rough is a bunker that cuts the width of the fairway in half at approximately the 250y mark from the back tee. It fits the terrain well as the architect built it into the upsweep at the crest of the hill. The tiger can try and carry it but on a direct line, he still wouldn't have the best angle into the green. Conversely, if he can carry it slightly uphill 260y, then he probably has a short iron into the green anyway and may not care much about playing angles.

As the bunker is cut into the hill, its lip is 4 feet or so and many a golfer has to wedge out and most golfers relinquish the idea of reaching the green in two if they get in it. To the credit of the architect, the bunker is a hazard and should be avoided. A great drive for a mere mortal playing from the right set of tees is to be to its left, leaving a mid to long iron into the green.

My question is: would the hole be better without this (seemingly vital) bunker?

Visually the hole would look plainer and there would be one less hazard to avoid, neither of which sounds like a promising developement.

From a playing perspective, without the bunker, many golfers would hit right into that general area (away from the OB left) and be left with a miserable angle into the angled green. Though the chance of hitting this left to right angled green from the right edge of the fairway (i.e. where today's bunker is) is slim, the option is there provided one can hit a shaped shot of great skill.

Is this a higher form of architecture? Is this an example of where 'less is more'? Don't build the bunker, don't provide a set way/road map on how to play a hole, let the golfer be duped into 'playing safe' , provide bail out room for one and all, one less bunker to mess around with maintenance-wise, etc.

Though the bunker looks great and plays like a hazard, it (accidentally perhaps) directs people to the best angle into the green. Does this bunker represent lazy architecture and would the hole would be better off without it?

Cheers,

 ???

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is this lazy architecture?
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2004, 04:23:34 PM »
Better without the bunker?

I'm sold.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is this lazy architecture?
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2004, 04:26:38 PM »
The question is relative to the mixed party game.  When a hole is played by players of an equal level it is perhaps a very good hole.  When played by players of mixed levels it is one of the biggest sins of design.  I've never understood the hazards that force layups leaving mixed games with a great advantage for the better player.  Example, if I were to play the hole with my grandfather and we played it from the proper tees, we'd both lay up and I'd have a 8 iron in and he'd be hitting 3 wood.  Not an equitable setting.  Rather the hole would be better if it tempted the better players greed by only extending the hazard across half of the fairway or leaving something to hit at on one side or the other.  To often I think design fails to consider the game played by players at mixed tee and if this was considered the architecture would be better!

Cheers!

JT
Jim Thompson

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is this lazy architecture?
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2004, 04:27:30 PM »
Generally speaking, I like the idea of a player having to find the best angle to play from rather than being directed towards it.

-Ted

Brent Hutto

Re:Is this lazy architecture?
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2004, 04:29:27 PM »
Is it a resort course or a member's course?

At a resort course it could actually be a less-subtle way of encouraging the player to  challenge the OB left and be surprised by the excellent angle into the green. Also on a resort course there will be plenty of players who take any penal bunker 250 yards off the tee as an irresistable challenge to be engaged whether or not it offers a strategic advantage when overcome. If so, it's a cool double-cross for the overly aggressive self-style "big hitter".

On a member's course the assumption is that the player will be familiar with the results of various options and it's hard to see what purpose the bunker serves beyond the visual. However, it certainly ups the ante for someone whose intended line is well left but who mis-aims or mis-shapes the shot and hits into the hazard. It becomes a full-shot penalty rather than the half-shot cost (or perhaps less depending on hole location) of simply being too far right. There's a big difference between "I want it left but bailing out right just means a bad angle" and "I want it left and bailing out right means wedging out and having a 150-yard third shot".

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is this lazy architecture?
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2004, 04:29:34 PM »
I vote no to the bunker.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is this lazy architecture?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2004, 04:30:34 PM »
I wouldn't consider it lazy or wrong. It is outside-the-box thinking, however. I'd prefer the bunker to be on the left side of the fairway -- challenging long hitters to clear it if they want the best angle into the green. Yes, that means there would be two reasons to bail out right, but you don't deserve much when you bail out, and it sounds like you wouldn't get much in this case.

I'd be sure that almost any shot that cleared the bunker and stayed in bounds ended up in a favorable spot. With great risk should come great reward.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is this lazy architecture?
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2004, 04:30:39 PM »
Ran

Well described, I think everybody reading will have a very clear picture of the hole and its options.

I see no reason for the bunker as long as the penalty for being in that portion of the fairway (if the bunker were not there) is a clearly more difficult approach than from the left. By your description it would be.

I do not believe in a hazard for the sake of the hazard, I enjoy uncovering a strategic advantage on a hole that is not obvious on first playing.

Thanks

Jim

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is this lazy architecture?
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2004, 04:31:07 PM »
The think it depends on the eye of the beholder and his golf belief system.

If you're someone who believes in visible, confrontable hazards, you probably say it's great.

If you're someone who prefers the "indirect tax" approach, where risks and rewards are more nebulous, you probably say the bunker is redundant and the hole would be better without it.

If you're Shivas, you say, 250? 260? Who even thinks about that. I'm gonna blast driver over it and have a lob wedge that I can hold from any angle. :)

If you're an architect interested in rankings and the improved opportunities that come along with them, you probably put the bunker in.

In an ideal world, I'd say you have a course with some holes that provide direct challenges to be confronted/avoided and some holes with fewer visual clues.

I personally would probably lean toward no bunker, but I can see it either way.

How's that for fence sitting? :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is this lazy architecture?
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2004, 04:32:46 PM »
Ran,

I don't know if it's lazy or not, but it sounds like architecture 101 to me.  

Based on your description, I like it.  Any hole that has a fatal hazard, one that costs you at least a stroke, is okay by me.

With today's equipment and technology it will be only a few years before that bunker is totally obsolete anway.  High scholl kids can hit driver - wedge to it now.  

Leave it there.

Lester

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is this lazy architecture?
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2004, 04:33:28 PM »
At 250 out the bunker is more an issue for the better players as 90% of the rest of us won't be able to reach it.  We'll still have everything we can handle regardless of the bunker.  Sounds like the bunker adds strength and interest to the better player as he now has complications to consider.

JC

Tony_Chapman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is this lazy architecture?
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2004, 04:33:39 PM »
Sounds to me like a misplaced bunker as well. It also sounds like it may aid the tiger player (ie. the tiger player aims it at the left edge of the bunker and lets it fly).

With no bunker, where do I aim? By your description, I would try to play down the right side (away from trouble, but a poor angle). No bunker and I challenge the hazard (in this case OB) I should be justly rewarded, no?

TEPaul

Re:Is this lazy architecture?
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2004, 04:40:17 PM »
"...Don't build the bunker, don't provide a set way/road map on how to play a hole, let the golfer be duped into 'playing safe',"

That's where you sold me! Lull the golfer into a false sense of security off the tee and make him pay for in indirectly. "Fake-out" architecture is one of the highest and best forms of architecture there is!  ;)

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is this lazy architecture?
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2004, 04:49:32 PM »
Ran,

Seeing as the bunker is around the 250 - 260 mark does that not also tighten the landing (rolling) area?  This means that a good medium length player has to really think on this hole.  Does he or she lay up before the bunker and have a long shot into a green tilting away from the shot or risk taking on the bunker and the out of bounds with the driver hoping to sneak it past and have a short to medium iron depending on the roll on the day.

Seeing as the bunker has been put in on the upsweep of the crest then is visually in a correct place no?

The bunker could have been left out as TEPaul says and lead the golfer into a false sense of security but if it is a resort golf course is that fair?  If it is a members course then the bunker could have been left out.

I like it and would probably have built it.  

Many of Colt's bunkering didn't always make sense but they were built in the right place visually.  The ones very close to tees are what I call 'feel good' bunkers...if a hacker gets over them (around 100 - 150 yards) they feel good!!


Brian.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is this lazy architecture?
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2004, 04:52:53 PM »
Ran,
I agree with George Pazin, I like it either way.

Maybe it could be described as the modern version of a topped shot bunker.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is this lazy architecture?
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2004, 05:12:03 PM »
It sounds as though the architect emphasized the visual aspects of the hole more that the strategic. It would be interesting to ask him why he placed a bunker in that location; as Brian rightly stated, some places just cry out for a bunker due to the inherent topography. I wouldn't call it lazy though, I'd use Mike Cirba's term: "anti-strategy".  ;)
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Mike_Cirba

Re:Is this lazy architecture?
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2004, 05:12:36 PM »
Sounds a lot like what I termed Tom Fazio's "anti-strategy" approach, which goes like this...

Challenge the fearsome bunker or other hazard on your drive only to be rewarded with the most difficult angle or carry on your approach.

Play safely away from the fearsome bunker  or other hazard on your drive only to be penalized with the most direct, open, advantageous approach angle.  

Mike_Cirba

Re:Is this lazy architecture?
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2004, 05:13:50 PM »
Pete Lavalee;

Our posts cross in Cyberspace!  You beat me to it!!! ;D

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is this lazy architecture?
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2004, 05:17:18 PM »
Mike;

Great minds think alike.  :D  Wouldn't it be funny if this was a Fazio course.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2004, 05:17:42 PM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Mike_Cirba

Re:Is this lazy architecture?
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2004, 05:21:49 PM »
Mike;

Great minds think alike.  :D  Wouldn't it be funny if this was a Fazio course.

I wonder if Ran would tell us even if it was.  ;)

Anybody know any Fazio around Southern Pines?  

Ran, did you keep to the cart paths?  ;D

Brian_Gracely

Re:Is this lazy architecture?
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2004, 05:22:39 PM »
But if I play left, while I'm rewarded with a straight approach to the green and through the greenside bunkers, I'm robbed of the opportunity to play to the green in a Redan-like manner (angled green).  

So the architect gave you a directional bunker.  Since there is OB left, they are not telling you to play it as far left as possible.  They are potentially saying if you want the best angle, you're going to need to hit a precise shot off the tee.

And if you're a long hitter, you might have the challenge (and the potential thrill) of two challenging shots.

Whatever happened to the old philosophy of "sportyness" in golf, where players took the path of greater challenge for the sake of great challenge?  Would the game really have been that much fun if we only sought out direct paths to certain points on a hole?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Is this lazy architecture?
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2004, 05:27:01 PM »
Brian;

That's as bad as Shivas telling me that some kamikaze golfers like to actually play for the hazards just for some masochistic adrenaline-inducing thrill.  Like...if you go this way I'll punish you and if you're successful, i"ll punish you again...just because you like it.

"Sir, may I have another, sir?"   :-[

Perhaps Tom Fazio actually does have the modern golfer's head figured out?   ::)

What's next?  The golf X-games where you tee off through a ring of fire, ride a 4-wheeler along the edge of cliff to your approach, which you land-ski on a skateboard striking at the ball with a two-sided sword with alligators hanging from your balls?   ;D
« Last Edit: December 29, 2004, 05:30:03 PM by Mike_Cirba »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Is this lazy architecture?
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2004, 05:31:51 PM »
The out of bounds is the principal hazard, and the strategy associated with it is there, regardless of the bunker.  You are still rewarded with a better angle to the green if you drive close to the o.b.

The bunker is a secondary hazard, placed to accent the hole visually and to give players of a certain length something extra to think about.  If everyone is playing the hole from 430 yards then it is primarily of interest to the good golfer and it's okay for it to be there; but if the average player can't get past it from the middle tees, then it is pretty penal toward them.

Most modern architects would put the bunker there just so they "did something" with the tee shot, instead of relying on a boundary as a principal hazard.

What would I have done?  It would depend on the rest of the course, and what we're trying to accomplish.

For Tom Paul:  Reverse Psychology 301:  The bunker on the right could also sucker a lot of good players into playing close to or over it, thinking they were improving their position [or just showing off their skill], only to discover they get a worse angle as a result.


Brian_Gracely

Re:Is this lazy architecture?
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2004, 05:34:47 PM »
Mike,

Some of you guys would drive half-way around the world to play a Redan, but yet you're telling me that you'd have no interest in playing a Redan-like shot (especially for a lefty) on the second shot?

Let me give you the REAL answer to this.....99.99% of the golfers in the world are not good enough to stand on the tee with a driver and tell where it's going to go.  So whether Shivas or I or somebody else tells you how they might play the hole, GCA smart or GCA dumb, the odds are we ain't gonna hit it there anyways.  

And what if that bunker was just put there to punish the guy that tries to go for the left side but slices it?  If the bunker wasn't there, but he still hit it long enough (carried over where the bunker would be), then he might just have a short iron (an aerial shot...since most courses in the US don't play firm enough to run it through that opening from the left).    

Mike_Cirba

Re:Is this lazy architecture?
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2004, 05:38:21 PM »
Tom Doak;

Agreed...my anti-strategy analogy only applies to holes where the bunker (in this case) is the primary hazard and I didn't read close enough where Ran mentioned the OB.

However..

Don't you think the type of "fool me once" strategies you mentioned in Arch 301 are only effective once?  In the case of a resort course, I guess that might be ok but you could spend your single client visit pissing off the player with deception but in any other case where the course would have a regular clientele, doesn't that trick only work "once", by definition?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2004, 05:39:00 PM by Mike_Cirba »