[TEPaul]

On the CC of York thread there was an observation or two that Flynn's routing looked like a tougher walk than Ross's routing and golf course on the same property.

It got me thinking about the importance of the ease of the golf walk on any golf course both in proximity and physically. It's always been somewhat of an architectural dictum to minimize a tough walk somehow. This sometimes required travesing uphill topography in either a walking or playing sense instead of taking uphill topography head-on.

It seems to me Flynn took topography head-on more than most architects, maybe even more than most any. Was it because he was basically a tough physical little guy, or for some other reason? Who knows?

One thing to look at is the courses he did and where their clubhouses were and whether or not he had a decision in that. When I think of some of the clubhouses on Flynn's courses a lot of them are way up on hills, maybe the highest elevation on the property that have to be slogged back up to somehow.

I guess the ultimate question here is---when Flynn took on topography head-on with some of his holes, as he certainly did, is the quality of those holes worth the uphill walk?

But, you know, when I think about this question with some of Ross's courses it's really no different. The uphill slog to some of Ross's final holes can be pretty tough----certainly the 9th and 18th on my own course is!

When I was doing the Ardrossan project with Bill Coore, at one point he said to me---"you know this site can potentially  be one helluva tough walk for your membership." Frankly, the thought of that had never even occured to me.

That's obviously why he's good and I'm not!  

What are some of the enduringly respected courses out there that are tough walks and was there a better way to minimize that or are those tough uphill holes worth it?

[Jim_Coleman]

   I'll give you a tough walk that I don't this is worth it - Galloway.
   Here's one that is more worth it than Galloway, but probably still not worth it - Fieldstone.
    And here's one that is worth it (but still not as much as the classics) - Stonewall #1.

[RJ_Daley]

While either of these courses are not old enough to be called "enduringly respected", they have gotten pretty widespread respect.  Those being Arcadia Bluffs, and Whistling Straits.  Arcadia is a tougher walk than Whistling, which is essentially walking mandatory.  Yet Arcadia is walkable, and Whistling only has a few places where it is a bit of a huff to get up to the next tee like 13 to 14 and 14 to 15.

We've beaten Sutton Bay to death on this score.  I will walk the darn thing next chance I get!

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Tom-

  Pat or Matt might be able to speak from better experience, but I would suggest Montclair, in terms of a Ross.


  On the same hand, using both Ross and Flynn, think about that Washington Golf & CC that you, Wayne, Craig, and myself looked at back in August--the entire course was the side of a hill!  

[Mark_F]

Tom Paul,

I can sort of give you an example that you would not have seen.  

The Dunes, down here on the Mornington Peninsula, is a nice course, with a few really interesting and dramatic holes.

It doesn't have any uphill hiles, from memory, that are a tough slog; rather, it's a bitch to walk because the green to tee walks are a hard slog.  

I guess this makes me sound like a real wuss, but it's the only course I've ever played that I thought I might need a cart on next time around.  

I think it's hard to look forward to the next hole when you arrive on the tee and you're leaning over grasping your legs and heaving for breath.  And I'm pretty fit.

Anything more than two, max three, times per round and all you think about is where's the friggin escalator?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Doug,

I'd agree with you regarding Montclair.

[David_Tepper]

Stanley Thompson's Highland Links on Cape Breton has one of the longest walks between holes I have ever seen, maybe 300-400 yards. It is on the back nine, either before or after the 13th hole. The walk is along the bank of a small river and is very much worth it, as is the entire course.    

[Joel_Stewart]

I've been told that Olympic (Lake) is a tough walk especially for those playing it for the first time. As we have talked about before, its a very physical golf course and you are tired but excited after playing it.

Tom:  Don't you think Pine Valley is a tough walk?  

[TEPaul]

"Tom:  Don't you think Pine Valley is a tough walk?"

Joel:

I guess the fact that I've never thought about that at PVGC would say I don't. That's a good question, though and it's what I meant to say with the subject of this thread. I really wasn't talking about long walks between greens and tees, I was talking about the design of a hole that takes uphill topography head-on and the way the walk up to a green, for instance, like that is handled. Is it worth it or not?

PVGC is pretty interesting that way I think, now that you mention it. The real climbs there are handled pretty damn well, in my opinion.

I'd say they'd be #2 approach to the green which is one of the most interesting approaches I've ever seen simply because you have to get used to using so much more club to that green than one would think but the walk up to the green is pretty instantaneous in that it's really only about 50 yards near the green and on the rigth side there're some neat little earthen stairs that sort of traverse.

Is the walk up to the elevated fairway on #4 worth the climb? I think it is because that tee shot is truly unusual to me and the great ground on top of that ridge fairway and over it is some of the most interesting I've ever seen on a golf hole in both direction and distance. In other words, if Crump hadn't used that landform as he did I think it would've been a crime. The slog up through that sand area is a tough walk but the quality of that drive makes it far more than worth it.

The climb from the tee up to the 5th green? Is that worth it? Do I really have to answer that? Everything that hole is certainly makes the climb more than worth it and I've never thought of it before but I think the stairs diagonally down and the travesing walk up is handled really well.

#15 is a long gradual walk uphill but somehow one doesn't really notice it---I guess becuase it's gradual and a slight traverse done well.

#17? I think the fact that the golfer walks through that enormous sand area is unusual enough where it probably takes his mind off the uphill climb.

#18? They handled the climb well by making it quick near the green and the stairs are a great addition.

Good point about PVGC. Maybe it is a tough walk somehow but there must be a bunch of interesting things that make the golfer not feel that or not really notice it.  

Not that I meant it to be the subject of this thread but other than 11 to 12 the green to tee proximity at PVGC is probably some of the closest and easiest in the world. It was a feature that was  a well known requirement of Crump's.

[Mike_Cirba]

Jim Coleman;

While Galloway can be a confusing, disjointed walk in stretches, I don't think it's a "tough" walk by any measure, particularly given flattish south Jersey.

I also disagree that it's not worth it.  Frankly, I think it's one of the best courses in the state and one of my favorites from Tom Fazio.

Hoping to play Fieldstone this year.  I understand that's a little more of a walking challenge.

[Mike_Cirba]

Pine Valley isn't a tough walk because the flow of adrenaline is non-stop.

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

Fieldstone is a good course in the sense that a lot of the holes are just different and fun to play. They shaped in some pretty radical topography in some of the hole mid-bodies (you know, it's a light and shade show thing! ). You tell me after you get down there if you don't think they took the Colorado plan out of the drawer and shipped it down to Delaware by mistake!   The thing I want to know, though, is whether the Delaware plan got built in Colorado.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

In the case of Fieldstone, do you have any idea if the owners/members requested something "different", even if it had to be contrived?  

Or, were the architects given carte blanche to have at it?

Or, did the plans get mixed up in the drawer?  

[TEPaul]

Here are two examples of how a membership couldn't take the head-on walk up steep topography.

One is the old 9th or 18th at the Pittsburgh Field Club. Originally a hole climbed all the way from the flat area up that mountain the clubhouse is on and the course was rerouted with a 17th hole down in the lower section with an industrial elevator to the 18th tee which is a par 3 finisher now.

The other good example is Manufacturers. The old 18th green is still there as an alternate (almost never used) but another 18th green is at the base of the long steep hill and there's a cog-railway now that takes the golfers up to the clubhouse when they're finished playing.

Obviously both those clubs didn't think the challenge and excitement of those approaches was worth the walk.

[T_MacWood]

Colt's Sunningdale-New was very well recieved and universally praised, but it had four holes over pretty severe terrain. Unfortunately, some of the members had difficulty walking those holes and eventually they looked to an alternative.

In the early 30's the club secured more land and then asked Tom Simpson to fix the four holes (I have no idea why they asked Simpson and not Colt). Simpson decided not only would he fix the four holes, but also redesign the entire golf course. He looked upon the project as an opportunity to take his theories of golf design (which included minimal hazards, emphasis on green and fairway oritentation--which hopefully translated into very difficult for the Tiger; reasonable for the Rabbit) and turn it up several notches.

When it opened the new Simpson New was quite controversial, but was praised by many for its boldness, including Darwin and Ambrose. Perhaps too bold, two years after opening it was completely redesigned by Colt's assistant Morrison who re-established many of Colt's holes. I believe only one Simpson hole survives today (if that).

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul;

Although the winch-rail-ride up the hill at Manufacturers is a fun novelty and conversation piece, I must say I was disappointed that the original 18th green wasn't in use.  I think the Gordon replacement green/hole is sort of a tame finisher by contrast.

Wayne and I had to try a couple of shots up the hill anyway, for funsies.  

[TEPaul]

"Tom;
In the case of Fieldstone, do you have any idea if the owners/members requested something "different", even if it had to be contrived?  
Or, were the architects given carte blanche to have at it?"

MikeC:

I don't know about that but I guess at one point I did have the opportunity to ask. I first went down there before the couse was finished to check it out for membership to GAP. Then I went back down when the course was finished for the same purpose---to play it with my GAP membership committee. I remember this nice lady who I think may've been the general manager at that time who proudly produced a whole series of photos of the massive earth-moving and shaping H&F did down there as if that was some kind of evidence of quality and impressiveness. I think I remember looking at them with her and going, "Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh huh!"

I've run across a couple of courses where the prinicpals or the manager or someone like that have told me that their course was some kind of engineering marvel as if that's a sign of quality. Seems like the other one I remember that way was Glenmaura. They told me that H&f moved about 10 trilion cubic yards of slag on that one.

I'll tell you one thing that H&F are probably the best in the world at that you'll definitely notice at Fieldstone and that's "shelving" fairways and such into hole mid-bodies that are naturally way too steep!

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

Part of the Forse plan might be to reestablish by reworking the 18th green and use it much more as an alernate. The problem with that original hole wasn't just the really steep walk up to that green it was also that the green was way too severe in slope to putt!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

I know what you mean about staying polite and stifling yourself with the 'uh huh..uh huh" response in talking with course officials or members.  I'm so damn polite I usually turn it into a false-positive, though, as in "wow, that's some really brown dirt you have here...is that all rock and clay?", or "who would have figured you could move 10 gazillion cubic yards of dirt just to build the 10th fairway?".  

I'll be interested to see Fieldstone in contrast to Glenmaura.  The latter is near where I grew up and was certainly not a site I'd think of as conducive to building a golf course.  

That's probably why it looks like one of those Japanese terraced gardens, with each fairway flatly "shelved" into the steep terrain, with a big hill on one side and dropping to oblivion on the other.  

You think with all of that slope, however, they might have preserved a foot or two of it for the greens?  

[wsmorrison]

My asthma gives be a natural barometer for tough walks.  To me and my lungs, a tough walk is not distance between holes so much as uphill slogs.  I think this is what Tom Paul is referring to as tough walks.

Doug is right about Washington Golf and Country Club, man there's some tough climbs there.  Even driving up to the place you can notice the steep drop on the other side of the clubhouse and know you wish you had metal spikes for some of the climbs.  

Rolling Green has some terrific topography and there's a few good climbs, particularly the climb to 8 green, the loooong steady climb up 9, the hill up to 11 and then up to 12 green, the steep short climb to 13 green, if you miss right, the climb up to 14 green, and then lastly 15 when the caddies know the arduous trek is about to end.  

The old course at Eagles Mere has a number of good climbs to it, though not quite as severe as the new course (NLE).

I recall CC Scranton having some nice climbs.  How about the back 9 at Pickering Valley?  Mike Cirba probably knows this course and man that's a tough nine to walk.  

Although it wasn't on an early iteration--it only was part way up the hill--Flynn's final plan for Shinnecock Hills 15th has a short steep climb--about 40 feet to the back tee.

Naturally, all of these courses are well worth the effort, even Pickering Valley.

[Mike_Cirba]

Getting back more on topic, one of the toughest walks that is always worth it is Bethpage Black.  

I'm not sure what makes it so brutal because there are no hills I'd call severe, most green to tee walks are not daunting, but I think it just comes off as relentless from a walkability standpoint.  

I wouldn't call it a course where you can't wait to go from the 18th green to the 1st tee, however.

[wsmorrison]

The Addington near London has some really tough climbs.  I was breathing hard throughout the round--starting with the uphill par 3 first.  Was it worth it?  Yes!  What a great golf course.

[Mike_Cirba]

Wayne;

Yep..I'm familiar with Pickering Valley.  It can be a tough climb in stretches.  The course architect, John Thompson, has done a few low-budget local courses and he's certainly not averse to confronting the player with significant slope.

I think CC of Scranton is a delightful walk.  It's not as sloped as many courses in that area or in the Poconos, simply because the members got the novel idea to build their course right on top of the mountain!  

[Mike_Cirba]

More Info about Glenmaura National from the website of the mini-tour tourney they host;

Glenmaura National was built on a mountain. Besides requiring an impressive engineering feat to route and build the course, preserving the natural assets of the Pennsylvania mountainside yielded a course that is framed by massive trees, bisected by bubbling mountain brooks, puncutated with waterfalls, and offers some of the most dramatic off-site views in golf.

According to course designer Michael Hurzden, Ph.D., Glenmaura was the most difficult challenge a golf course designer could face. The sternest of the 7,000+ yards test is partially attributed to Larry Mize, PGA TOUR champion, who was a design consultant on the project.

The design crew started with a valley floor of mostly wetlands, middle slopes that had been badly strip-mined, and upper slopes that were solid granite. There was virtually no topsoil on the site. Protected environmental areas that marbled the site restricted movement and it took 100,000 cubic yard of rock blasting to create the golf course.

There are wetland areas in front of all the tee boxes. The fairways are wide, but they are lined by large rocks and trees, and the greens are average-sized and fast. Golf Digest rated this as the eighth "Best New Private Course" in America for 1995, and also rated it as the 11th "Best in State" course for 1997-98.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Would you bifurcate your thread ?

1 golf courses with terrain that makes for a difficult walk
2 routing that makes for a difficult walk.

When I thought of some of the walks at Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes, I thought they were a negative, which seemed to be outweighed by the positive which was the holes on the golf course.

As you know, Merion has some awkward walks as well, but the quality of the golf course overwhelms that negative.

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