[JESII]

I recently heard that Philly Country is scheduled as the other qualifying course for the US Am next year (along with host Merion). Will the recent alterations to the golf course provide enough of a challenge for the players?

Does anybody know how much length was added?

I saw the scores from this year's Philadephia Open and they were remarkably high, I believe 1 over par won.

Were any holes changed dramatically? How about the finishing stretch (14-18)?

Thanks

Jim

[Mike_Cirba]

Jim,

I didn't realize that additional changes had occurred there?  

Last time I was over there they had recently completed their bunker and green restoration project, as well as some incredible tree clearing that opened up vistas throughout the course.  The course was stunning and I was impressed with the natural integration of the work.  At the time, I wrote that I would defy anyone to tell that the bunkers had been recently worked on, as Mark McNulty (with Ron Forse consulting) and his staff did some amazing things with them.

At the time, I was told that the course would be joining Merion in the medal rounds of the US Am.  I remember thinking that I was going to have a tough time deciding where to spend my spectating time!

[JESII]

Thanks Mike,

I played there in the fall and could not distinguih what had been changed but my host pointed out new things on many holes, including bunker restoration and some new back tees that I cannot recall exactly. The tree clearing was awesome, I am one of those that feels (on inland courses) there should be as few trees on the interior of the golf course as possible. I can certainly sympathize with your spectating predicament, both will be fantastic venues. Keep in mind that you will be able to watch at Merion all week and only at Country Monday and Tuesday.

Jim

[Mike_Cirba]

Jim;

Yes, that was my thought exactly!  I'm particularly interested to see how the top Ams approach some of the really cool short par fours, as well as the wonderful par threes.  Oh hell, i'm interested to see how the par fives hold up, as well!

I'm a big fan of PCC and always loved Merion so I'm hoping for some nice, dry weather coming into the week.  If they get those courses firm and fast I'm quite sure it will make for some exciting golf.

[TEPaul]

Jim:

Philly C.C. redid, or restored their bunkering, regrassed their greens (A1 & A4) probably did some green expansion, perhaps redid their fairways (they are Princeville) and added length to holes #3, 4, 6, 10, 12, 13, 14, 17, and maybe a little to a few others. I don't know what the total card yardage is now or how much additional the total is or to each hole but I sure will find out for you. The scores in the Philly Open at PCC were higher than usual because the course played long and the greens were hard to putt and recover to. The reason many of the players gave for their problems on and around the greens was there was a considerable amount of grain on them that they really couldn't either see of figure out. I was out there officiating and that certainly did seem to be the case.

If the course is set up for US Am qualifying as it was for the Philly Open, and I hope it will be, PCC will be a good test for the US am qualifiers.

[JESII]

I would have to think both courses are hoping for good dry weather for the month or so leading up to that week. don't care too much what score anybody shoots, rather, I don't care if the best amateurs in the world shoot very low scores, but I would very much want them to do it on an ideal golf course not one in which they have to worry about spinning balls off the front of greens. I would much rather they have to decide on the 18th tee at Merion if they are going to hit a full drive over the hill and have to deal with that downhill lie to elevated difficult green, or lay back to the top of the hill where they might get more elevation coming into the green therefore increasing the odds of keeping a ball on the green.

Only a firm green can firce that decision on the tee, and I am sure all involved in the preparation are aiming for exactly that.

Jim

[Mike_Cirba]

Jim;

It's almost scary that you talk about a player trying to determine whether to lay up on 18 to avoid catching the downhill.

One day me, Tom Paul, and Rich Goodale all tried out the new tips and we all hit good drives on 18, in fact it was my best of the day.  Two of us were able to clear the quarry and get just to the top of the hill.  I'll let you guess who didn't clear it.  

Combined, the new back tees at Merion bring that course to nearly 7000 yards, and the difficult part is that the additions are mostly on holes that played long anyway like 5, 14, and 18.  

If there's some wind, and firm conditions, it could be a blood bath.

[JESII]

Good Point Mike

I've not been there since the additional tees were put in, what is the longest that hole can now play? Any idea of the yardage to 1) clear the quarry,2) reach the fairway, 3)reach the ladies tee with a wedge ??

Jim

[Mike_Cirba]

Jim;

I'm not sure the total card yardage of 18, but that tee is "back there".  I would guess that both 5 & 18 now play close to 500 yards.  

The tee shot on 18 is frightening, and I'd hate to face it into a head wind!  

[JESII]

I thought I heard that 500 number at some point. I would guess the fairway starts about 250 from the green, therefore same from the back tee which uphill into any wind at all is quite a hit. Some of these kids that think they hit the ball 300 will be in for a big surprise.

About 10 years ago there was a young Korean kid from California named Ted Oh, he made a name for himself by qualifying for the '93 Open at Baltusrol. He was in the Philadelphia area for the US Am qualifier in '94 (at HVCC) and I played a practice round with him and after his approach to the 14th came up short (about his 10th short approach of the day) he looked at me and said "does the ball not go as far here"? I thought it was hilarious. I guess he had the last laugh, he qualified and I missed by about 5 shots.

Back to your statement about Merion stretching the long holes, I think that is clearly the best way to 'improve through lengthening' a golf course. Turning a 370 hole into a 400 hole accomplishes very little in itself, while turning a 450 into a 480 could really separate the best ballstrikers. And the short holes at Merion are so good as they are it would have been a mistake to tinker with them, IMO.

Jim

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

I will guarantee you that JES II can fly a drive about fifty yards over your Sunday best and about 75 yards over mine. I've played with the young gorrila in the past!  

[ForkaB]

While it looks like it's a carry of 250+ , I'd guess that it is no more than 230.  In my one attempt I came off the ball a bit but still got over.  One of my playing partners, who has a monotonously relentless carry of exactly 227, nearly made it......

[JESII]

But isn't the fairway another 20 yards or so past the crest?

Jim

[ForkaB]

Could be, Jim--can't really remember that precisely.  I do know that I hit a ball which I would guess carried no more than 230-240 and ended up nearly level with the Hogan plaque.

[JESII]

Interesting Rich,

Sounds like you don't think the boys next summer will have much trouble with that tee shot? How about the 17th at PCC, I have often thought forcing a shaped tee ball is how to really challenge the top players. Apparently that tee is longer and further right. Driver may not be required, but one would not want to hit the approach from 220 on the top of that hill very often.

Jim

[wsmorrison]

Jim,

They did bring the fairway back about 15-20 yards on 18 at Merion.  I guess 5, 6, 15 and 18 all play on or about 500 yards.  17 can be up to about 250, they lowered the front tees so most of the visibility is still there.  The total yardage is a shade under 7000 par 70.

As to the new back tees at Philly Country, it brings the total yardage to just under 7000 par 70/71.  Although it may have the shortest starting two par 4s in championship golf, I am certain the course will test the participants very well.

Here's the yardage from the Black tees:
1   325
2   353
3   585
4   470
5   167
6   500 (Won't they play this as a par 4?)
7   211
8   391
9   416
10 437
11 192
12 580
13 380
14 477 (Mike Nilon's suggested tee)
15 225
16 403
17 460 (The back right tee will require more shaping.  In the   1939 Open, Nelson used 3 wood off the tee every day so he'd have a flat lie.  He was confident that he was the best long iron player of his day and would not give back shots to the field)
18 392

[JESII]

Jim,

They did bring the fairway back about 15-20 yards on 18 at Merion.  I guess 5, 6, 15 and 18 all play on or about 500 yards.  17 can be up to about 250, they lowered the front tees so most of the visibility is still there.  The total yardage is a shade under 7000 par 70.

Wayne,

Are you referring to numbers 5,6,15 and 18 at Merion? Did they really stretch 6 and 15 that far? I had heard about 5 and 18, but it would seem to me that 6 would work best at 450 or 460 because of the dogleg and 15 at 425 - 450 because of the size and severity of the green. That would be amazing if those two holes in particular were that long.

Thanks,

Jim

[wsmorrison]

Jim,

Yes, I was referring to 5, 6, 15 and 18 at Merion.  I don't know that they will use the back of the back tees such as on 15 for instance.  Maybe the length is there just in case the wind direction is aiding, but the tee, as I recall, on 15 does go all the way back to the big tree  opposite the 16th green.  As for 6, they moved the fairway to the left (near the bunkers) so I guess with the back tee orientation the angle might be a bit less.  I'll have to look at that a bit more carefully from the back tee.  The sightline bunker on the right will be much more useful to the players.  Flynn was proposing a change in 1930 to a complex of 3 bunkers with mounds but I don't think it was ever done.  The sightline bunker was put in prior to the 1924 Amateur.

By the way, glad to have you on board!  There's a passionate contingency from Philadelphia as you know and you've made it quite a bit stronger.  Thanks!

[JESII]

Wayne,

I have noticed a strong local contingency, and certainly passionate as you say. Thank you for the welcome.

As far as the new tees at Merion, I would not imagine they would use all of them for the Amateur next year, but I see nothing wrong with having them in case lack of length continues to be mentioned as a reason for not bringing the Open back.

My personal feeling is that if you could assure a firm and fast  the Open at Merion would be a great test, while a soft course might yield some very low scores. I think the USGA goes a bit too far in attempting to protect par at the Open and, in the case of Shinnecock, they lose sight of the real objective; let the best players in the world play some of the best courses in the world and see who handles it the best.

Cheers,

Jim

[TEPaul]

Wayne;

#15 Merion is nowhere near 500 yards--that would be next to impossible to do. I don't think #6 is that near 500 either although #5 is 500. I looked that the stake just before they built that tee on #5 and I think it said 502 on it. #14 is going to be pretty interesting too. It's the only transitional practice putting green/back tee I've ever seen.

[wsmorrison]

I guess you're right, Tom, I must be wrong.  I thought there were four holes around 500 yards, but I guess not.  Clearly 5 and 18 are on or about.  Looking at the map, I guess 6 is only about 470 or so.  It sure looked to me that the back tee on 15 is about 80 yards or so behind the present tee, but that would be about 460.  What do you think the yardage on 14 is from the back of the putting green/tee?  480?

[Willie_Dow]

Hey - Merion East is getting to look more and more like Wannamoisett!
Cram as much into the place as the real-estate will allow.

But, realistically, why not?  Flynn knew it was there, and Wilson knew it also.  But Flynn knew the routing that would eventually accomodate his 8000 yard demand.

Accomodation!

Willie  

[Willie_Dow]

By the way Jim, have you played in the Northeast Amateur at Wannamoisett?

[TEPaul]

" What do you think the yardage on 14 is from the back of the putting green/tee?  480?"

Wayne:

Probably. The interesting thing is what Merion plans to put on their new cards for the total card yardage from the tips. That'll depend on where they want to place the permanent yardage markers ("monuments", whether they be Merion's or GAP's). I heard about what the total rated yardage on the new card from the new tips would be from a most reliable source the other day but I'm not going to say. If Merion wanted to use a bit of a trick that way to get the total card yardage from the new tips as long as possible they could place those "monuments" about two steps from the back of every back tee. That way they could probably pick up another 50-75 yards on the card. It wouldn't exactly relate to where they placed the actual tee markers but it would make the total card yardage from the back look longer!  

[JESII]

Willie,

I have never been to Wannamoisett, unfortunately. I have heard nothing but acclaim for the course, although I don't recall any mention of space. Your comments bring a couple of interesting thoughts to mind;

1) Do you really think Merion was routed so as to allow the type of 'expansion that has developed?
---I forget where but I have seen writing from Flynn that, because of equipment, courses one day would have to be 7500-800 yards to provide the type of challenge presented at the time he was working.
---I am sure some of our friends on this board, possibly yourself, are much more knowledgeable than I about the actual routing of the East Course, but I am aware that Flynn spent a great deal of time there in its early years as greenskeeper before striking out on his own as an architect. Do we know if Flynn had anything to do with the routing?

2) How would Wannamoisett compare to our local Donald Ross courses (Aronimink, Gulph Mills etc..)?
---I understand it plays to a par of 69, I am not necessarily a proponent of paying attention to par, but wouldn't Gulpf Mills draw much more acclaim as a par 69? I am obviously referring to #7 and #18.

Jim
---Has Gulph Mills adopted the "Ideal Maintenence Meld" yet?

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