In the 5 Architects thread Tom Doak points out that you get his future work as well.  So I ask you,  narrow The Good Doctor's portfolio to just Cypress Point Club and Augusta National Golf Club.     Who among you would take Doak past/present/future over CPC and ANGC (as is)?  Why or why not?  

Mike  

I agree with Bill that Mac's resume is impressive (understatement of the year), but Doak has one advantage--the ability to travel in today's world.  Sites that may have never been seen, much less thought about for golf (Barndougle, Cape Kidnappers) are now spots people plan on seeing.  In today's smaller global village, Doak (and others in today's world) are going to have the opportunity to build courses in places such as China, Russia, or anywhere else the mind can wander.  

Augusta was built in a Southern town convenient for Eastern Seaboard types a spot to play in the winter or on way to/from Florida.  Cypress is near San Fran--and is Cypress for God's sake!  Of course, Mac may have started the trend of going to new out of the way places with his travels to Australia, but even then it seems he stayed in more metro areas where people could get to easily.  

So in one hundred years what will people think in Mac v Doak--well obviously Mac's rep is set for life so he has nothing to worry about.  But Doak I'm sure will be still be talked about and I would not be suprised if when said and done his resume is even more varied.

Reducing the good Doctor's work is somewhat unfair unless you also reduce Doak's work to just the US.  But if it must be done, then I'd reduce the McK's work to just CPC and Crystal Downs and take it over Doak's for the singular reason that Northern Michigan and Monterey are the two finest places in the country.  

...but it's killing me to think of never playing Sheep Ranch.  The concept of Sheep Ranch alone, if it never becomes more than a very cool pasture, might be enough for me to sway my vote.  Tell me about Oregon....  

btw - if Tom D. ever sees this thread, or anybody knows the TRUTH....whose idea was it to build Sheep Ranch - Doak or Keiser?  Who had the original idea on a napkin in the bar over drinks?

Huck,

I think for the first couple of years, I would just play #8-9 at CPC.  I can conceive of playing both of those holes where I hit the tee-shot or approach with almost every club (and combination) in my bag.  

And at the end of each day, I'd walk over to #15 tee, hit one shot and then watch the sunset.  

I'm with Huck and Barney on this, and I've never done a Doak. But if you can't be happy with Augusta and Cypress, you're a difficult customer.

The really good news, laddies, is that we can play a bunch of MacKenzie courses AND a bunch of Doak courses!  Why be "either / or" when you can play 'em both?

To me the best of the classic and neo-classic, although I still haven't had the pleasure of playing a MacDonald-Raynor classic!

I hate to say this, and Tom D., don't hate me, but as I said a few months ago, the best work in most artistic fields is done by the pioneers.  Odds are that the classics (why do you think they call them classics?) will never be topped.  It's like cars.  Today's Corvette or Mustang or Ferrarri is technically a better car, but I can't imagine that the '63 split-widow, the "67 Mustang or the Daytona Spyder will ever be topped.

Shivasity,

Excellent analogy that hits at the heart of my initial post.  

Thanks.

Bill - that was a bit too positive.  Come on man, negativity is the coin of the realm here... you sure as hell don't want to be like me, always happy.  What a dreadful life.  

And John, Mike didn't say this was for one round... I just got the impression this was where we'd spend our remaining golfing days... I guess I read it wrong.

If this to be based on one round at CP and Augusta v. one round at every Doak course in existence present and future... well.... I believe in all sincerity I would give up rights to all Doak courses for such.  And I say this having had the incredible great fortune to have already played Cypress four times, and knowing full well what I'd be missing in Australia and New Zealand and Oregon, among other places.  THis ought to tell you just how I feel about Augusta.  Life dream, that's what that place is for me.

TH

I'd take Doak's Pacific Dunes over ANGC. I say that about Pac Dunes because I think it's a truly fascinating statement and necessary difference for American architecture. I'd take it over ANGC for the same reason I don't think Michael Jackson is 1/10th as interesting today as he was when he was a afro-headed, teeny bopping, natural high-squealing voiced, little water-bug super-star who probably could've done the moon walk if someone just asked him to even though he may never have thought of it before!

I'd take CPC over anything Doak's done past or present. In the future? Who knows? That's why the future can always be interesting!

"TEP:
Have you played Augusta already? That might explain things."

TomH:

Oh sure--probably a hundred times. It's been a good long while now but neither Arnie nor Jack would go there often without taking me along!  

"See, I could give a rat's ass about architecture, as compared with reliving the countless famous, epic, heroic, legendary shots I've witnessed on TV over the years.  The fact that I'd guess the course is damn fun to play even in its current bastardized state just is the cherry on top of this sundae, for me anyway."

I realize you couldn't give a rat's ass about architecture compared to those other things. That's part of your problem! You probably get just as big a thrill going to that turn-stile tourist trap, Graceland, just because Elvis lived there 25 years ago!  

Don't get me wrong---Elvis was the KING and he still is but Graceland's a thundering let-down.

I would take CPC over almost anything else I have played or seen , but on these shores, Pacific Dunes is something very special.
I remember walking off the course, turning to my friends and saying, "As much as it hurts me to say this as a Brit, I think I may have just played the best links course in the world"

As wonderful as Augusta was , I do not think I was in as much awe as I was when I played P.Dunes..I know that seems crazy and almost sinful, but that is how I felt.

At this point the body of work is in Dr Mac's favour, yet I wonder at the respective stages of their career, if that is the case.
Possibly Mr Doak's work at this stage of his career is better than that of his predecesor, but that is open for debate.
Also one could argue that Mr Doak does have the pioneers to go by in his quest, whilst the likes of Dr Mac were somehat making it up as they went along.
SO that nobody accuses me of being ignorant, I do realise that there were golf courses before Dr Mac, and he did have some gudance.

I guess that is my longwinded limey way of just about giving the old master the egde..I choose Dr Mac

As wonderful as Augusta was , I do not think I was in as much awe as I was when I played P.Dunes..I know that seems crazy and almost sinful, but that is how I felt.

Really?
At first, that seems unbelievable to me.  I mean please, Pacific Dunes is a wonderful course, the closest thing to links golf that we get in these United States most likely, but I sure as hell felt no particular awe there... Maybe because I have played a LOT of real links courses in the UK and Ireland... I did find it to be a truly great course, one deserving of its accolades.  But awe?  I felt that at St. Andrews, Muirfield, several others, but not at Pacific Dunes.  I guess it comes down to one's history.

And that's what makes me find your take on Augusta understable, Michael.  From what I read here, I gather you are a well-traveled golfer who competes at darn near the highest amateur levels, correct?  For someone like that, the Masters as an awe-inspiring thing holds no particular allure, given it's not completely far-fetched that you could actually play in it some day, correct?  Work with me on this.  

For a yokel like me who's lucky to be a 6 handicap and win his club championship in a feat of pure luck... well... competing at high levels is not reality.

Thus Augusta as home of the Masters has a different allure... it has the feel of being the closest thing to golf heaven a guy like me could aspire to.  To walk in those footsteps, at that place... well it's just so impossible and unreal that were it to truly happen, it would indeed be life-changing.  You wanna talk AWE?  Hell I'd be lucky to be able to bring the club back on the first tee.  I'd probably faint on 12.

So different strokes for different folks, you know?

I'd just have to guess that once again outside this extremely well-traveled, well-connected forum, well.... the percentages of those who feel awe at Augusta v. those who do so at Pacific Dunes is gonna run about 90/10.

TH

Michael:

That makes great sense and I do appreciate the reply.  And yes, Mid-Am title was what I meant by not being far-fetched... as the thing guys like you and Jamie must have in the back of your mind.  That's not arrogance at all - it's a goal to strive for and to me is wonderful.

And I get what you are saying re expectations also.  You had the luxury of not being inundated by previews and photos of Pacific Dunes, obviously.  For me it went the other way... I will say just how great it is took me by surprise, but as for what it was and how it was, well... that was a known quantity to me.  See by the time I played there only about 500 photos of it had been posted on this site!

So I can absolutely understand that seeing it for the first time, with no preview, well it sure could blow one away.  Whereas Augusta is a known quantity for sure, for all golfers.

My thing though is that just as an average golfer and huge fan of the Masters, well... that trumps it all for me.  In fact one of the things I'd relish playing there IS the fact that I think I know it.... for me it would be very fun to see how reality compares with my TV/Masters-produced impressions.

So you are not a lunatic Michael, far from it.  Hell if there is a lunatic in this it is likely ME for how I rant and rave about the meaning of Augusta.  It is after all just a golf course, and life-changing events should be reserved for weddings, births, funerals and the like.

But damn it holds that kind of allure for me!

TH