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JakaB

Why is Pete Dye only tolerated at best on this board...
« on: November 29, 2004, 04:56:19 PM »
And you people that pick Tom Doak over Pete Dye everyday of the week need to explain yourself....what is it...the lack of views that don't get your boat launched....come on and fess up before he dies and all that is left is pity praise....is he in some kind of architectural purgatory.....not hip but not dead yet...

A_Clay_Man

Re:Why is Pete Dye only tolerated at best on this board...
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2004, 05:05:25 PM »
I can't answer for anybody else, and I'm a big fan of Mr. Dye, but the things that bug me about Pete's courses are:

Too many man-made water hazards, and on some of the natural ones, he uses trees.

 Two of the weaker elements of the modern era.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Why is Pete Dye only tolerated at best on this board...
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2004, 05:14:16 PM »
I love Pete Dye's work and believe he has been a visionary genius.

However, I also believe that like most architects, the courses of his that really shine are where he put in the most time, like The Ocean Course.  

Others, like a bunch he created in the later part of the 90s seem to be almost a bad parody of his style.

Generally though, if I'm looking to play a course everyday I wouldn't pick one of his.  However, if I were looking for courses I'd like to see the pros play everyday, I'd send them to his torture chambers.  

Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is Pete Dye only tolerated at best on this board...
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2004, 05:16:29 PM »
          Pete Dye
                 |
       --- --- --- --- ---
      |                   |
J. Nicklaus       Tom Doak

JakaB

Re:Why is Pete Dye only tolerated at best on this board...
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2004, 05:50:03 PM »
I love Pete Dye's work and believe he has been a visionary genius.


Which of his visions are being used today by the architects of most favored status...and when was the last time that this board went ga ga over gil was it recognized...
« Last Edit: November 29, 2004, 05:51:06 PM by John B. Kavanaugh »

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is Pete Dye only tolerated at best on this board...
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2004, 05:54:09 PM »
Every Dye course I'v played has been great fun.

I can even remember his courses hole by hole, or I should say those I have played a number of times.  Eg. Harbor Town, Long Cove, Moorings, and even the Ocean Course which I only played once during a gale before Hurricane Hugo.

His waste bunkers, his mounding, and perhaps Alice's routing is/are superb.  Many flat bunkers toward a downslope green really builds character.

Bulkheads, like the 18th at Moorings - where I had a nice 3 on Thanksgiving Day - with the pin up front over water, make for memories, and a tastier turkey !

Thanks, Pete & yours -

Willie

TEPaul

Re:Why is Pete Dye only tolerated at best on this board...
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2004, 06:15:58 PM »
In my opinion, Pete and his architecture is in it's very own little niche in the larger genre of the so-called "Modern Age of Architecture". And that niche, that I consider Pete's very own because basically he (and Alice) came up with it, dreamed it up, whatever, is uniquely their very own---and extremely significant it is, and has been since Pete first came on stream bigtime!!

What is that niche of Pete's and why is it both controversial, probably loved, hated, and whatever else? That's for another post and other posts. But the really interesting thing is to contemplate how Pete (and Alice) came to define the architecture that probably is in a very unique place in the evolution of architecture. For that one probably needs to follow them back to that time they went oversees for an extended time and what hit them (and perhaps what didn't).

Pete Dye is going to go down as one of the greats in the annals of architecture though, in my opinion. Personally, I think Dye architecture can just play great and fascinating too but I personally never got that comfortable with the look of some of it.

The thing I always loved about Pete Dye, though, and Alice too, is he (they) was never a client yes man, or a yes man with anyone else I could see. Pete always knew how to stand his own ground. Pete knew people both loved and hated his architecture and frankly I don't think he ever really cared which it was!

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is Pete Dye only tolerated at best on this board...
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2004, 06:39:58 PM »
I love Dye's courses.

Dye may have suffered from the media continuously telling us that his courses are impossibly difficult.  Notably Sawgrass,  PGA West and Kiawah.

I have not played Sawgrass but have played both Kiawah and Stadium on several occasions.  The are visually challenging on first review.  However, they are much more playable than one would think after playing them.  

That, I believe, is the genius of Pete Dye.  Visual intimidation with strong underlying strategy.  

Like any Architect/Designer or any artist for that matter, not all of Mr.Dye's creations are masterpieces.  I am sure that Doak and C&C have tracks that are less than..  What Dye has created is a legacy.  His legacy is embodied in the likes of Tom Doak, John Harbottle and Tim Liddy.  I am sure that many other practicing designers were mentored by Dye.  Dye, it could be said, started his own school of architecture.  It will probably be decades before we know if it is as important as the Philadelphians.  

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is Pete Dye only tolerated at best on this board...
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2004, 06:52:50 PM »
I've always got the sense that some (or many) people on this site say things like "pete changed the face of course design" just because it seems to be the popular opinion. Because a lot of the people who say this don't really like his courses that much, they  just say the politically correct thing so not to stir the pot.

I do get the sense that A LOT of people on this site don't like his style, and that's fine. I would just rather people fess up and say "I don't like pete dye's style".

Oh ya, but a lot of people DO believe he changed the face of course design and really like his work. I am one of them.

The current vogue in course design is the Doak and C&C style, so now many people on this site are turning their backs on pete. If this site was around in 1982, the only thing this site would be talking about would be dye, kinda like the only thing this site talks about now is Doak and C&C.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is Pete Dye only tolerated at best on this board...
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2004, 06:58:28 PM »
And I mean, all you have to do is look at the "your top 5 architect" thread" and you will see that not many have dye in their top 5. There's all the proof you need. He's not that popular on this site, which is a shame really.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

JakaB

Re:Why is Pete Dye only tolerated at best on this board...
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2004, 07:11:48 PM »
Thank you Matt...the modern critic doesn't like being nervous out on the course...they will always take a pass on visual intimidation for stimulation...the beauty of nature outweighs the hand of man...what you gonna do...

TEPaul

Re:Why is Pete Dye only tolerated at best on this board...
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2004, 10:12:14 PM »
John B:

Could you possibly define for some of us in a few paragraphs or less what it is exactly that you're looking for in golf course architecture?

Thank you, thank you very much!

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is Pete Dye only tolerated at best on this board...
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2004, 11:43:34 PM »

I too was surprised how few people actually selected him as a favorite architect.  I think all the mediocre tracks that he's let Perry do in his name has detracted from the amazing work that Pete's actually done. No one gets inside a golfers head more than Pete Dye.  It would be hard to beat the his top 10 courses with any other modern architect.

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Why is Pete Dye only tolerated at best on this board...
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2004, 07:28:25 AM »
Pete Dye builds alot of housing and resort courses, which are not fan favorites here. The courses of his I would most like to see are:

Long Cove Club
Teeth of the Dog
Pete Dye GC
The Honors Course
The Ocean Course

Reality is I need to do some "heavy lifting" to go see all of these courses. He has no real courses in the Northeast at all considering Brad's course is really a Tim Liddy project. I sort of regret skipping Harbour Town a few years ago, but it seemed overpriced especially since my son was playing too. My only Pete Dye seen is at Disney, which is obviously not his best work.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is Pete Dye only tolerated at best on this board...
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2004, 07:51:44 AM »
Reality is I need to do some "heavy lifting" to go see all of these courses.

Ditto!  I didn't post a list of five favorite GCA's, but if I had, and left Dye out, it would have simply been due to lack of exposure to his work.  I have played the Ocean Course, and hope to again, and eventually I'm sure I'll play others, but most are relatively inaccessible to me.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is Pete Dye only tolerated at best on this board...
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2004, 12:24:04 PM »
Can one admire the man and respect his work, but not really enjoy his courses?  I have played a nice cross-section of Dye courses and am in this camp.

Brad Klein once introduced Pete as the "Marquis de Sod".  His courses are invariably the most penal, and, for me at least (an admitted pencil and paper type), much too intense.

Pete has franchised difficulty.  I prefer courses that are more playable, and where I can recover from an indifferent shot with a great effort on the next one (a MacKenzie principle).  In my opinion, he just makes them hard for the sake of it.  

Even though Pete claims that he always leaves one side of the hole relatively open, my experience has been that unless you get both, the distance and direction just right, you are toast.  Not many of us are that good.

And neither are most of the pros- the medalist at a second stage qualifier for the PGA Tour shot 2 under for four rounds at the Dallas Stars CC Dye Course (previously know as Stonebridge CC).  The weather was not extreme, and no one else broke par.  A certain 5 handicapper that I know shot a 95 there a couple of weeks before.

Golf is supposed to be challenging, but also fun.  Perhaps in match play such as the Ryder Cup on the Kiawah- Ocean, his courses may be more entertaining.  Unfortunately, most Dye courses which I have played do not get that much easier by moving up one or more sets of tees.  His greens and surrounds are just as "dyebolical".

My favorite Dye course:  Long Cove.  It is an exception to most of what I stated above.    


Phil_the_Author

Re:Why is Pete Dye only tolerated at best on this board...
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2004, 12:26:49 PM »
It could be worse - at least he is not thought of by the 'cognoscenti' as being on the level of Rees Jones!  ;D

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is Pete Dye only tolerated at best on this board...
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2004, 12:29:42 PM »
Dye is xenophobic.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is Pete Dye only tolerated at best on this board...
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2004, 12:42:55 PM »

... even the Ocean Course which I only played once during a gale before Hurricane Hugo.



You must be thinking of another storm...  The Ocean Course was still under construction when Hugo blew thru.  
 :'(

Mike_Cirba

Re:Why is Pete Dye only tolerated at best on this board...
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2004, 01:55:53 PM »
Lou Duran;

I agree with you 100%.  It's exactly how I feel.  The closest I come to loving a Dye course is the River Course at Blackwolf Run, which is so pretty that you don't mind so much that it's beating the shit out of you, and The Ocean Course, where the hugely constructed course still manages to have a low-country appeal combined with, yep, the ocean while it cuts off your balls.


Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is Pete Dye only tolerated at best on this board...
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2004, 02:04:06 PM »
Let me disagree from the mid-hdcp view.  Most of the Dye courses I have played are very playable, though intimidating, so long as you stay safe.  It is mostly when you try to make birdies, get close to the hole, etc., that you can get really nailed, and isn't that how it should be?  The only exception I have played is PGA West, with the ridiculous par-3s.  Otherwise, I can get it around pretty well at all 4 at BWR, the Moutain course at La Quinta and a couple others.  The Straits course is especially wide and open for the likes of me.

Jeff Goldman
That was one hellacious beaver.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is Pete Dye only tolerated at best on this board...
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2004, 02:53:17 PM »
I think Mr Dye gets a bad rap because of his "poorer" way too man made looking courses, whilst many forget about his finer work..such as that at Habour Town, Long Cove, Casa de campo and obviuosl others.
I think some of his more onnoxius{for the lack of a better word} courses such as PGA West even Sawgrass are just too man made in apperance to appeal to many traditionlists and as such the guy gets slammed.
One of the main threads from yesterday, concerned formulated designs, I think with the vast majority of layouts that Mr Dye has produced you would be hard pressed to accuse him of that.
I understand he likes certain constan elements in his golf courses, but they certainly do not look alike.

I ma not a big lover of modern architecture, however, I have had alot of fun playing Mr Dye's courses, and really like some of what I would term his more "subtle" exploits.
I would love to play The Pete Dye Club, that looks rather inviting

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is Pete Dye only tolerated at best on this board...
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2004, 02:54:34 PM »
I am sorry that word is ..obnoxious..still not the best word I could have used

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is Pete Dye only tolerated at best on this board...
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2004, 03:03:23 PM »
This is an interesting question.  It is pretty well agreed that Pete Dye was the architect who started the move away from the RTJ style which dominated the post war "dark ages."   On that basis alone he should be lionized on this board.  In terms of working style, his legendary willingness to move on to the site and spend every day working on the ground, operating machinery etc. is the model which is advanced by many of our most respected posters.  His ability to control the pros without resorting to outlandishly long courses is rare.  The number of really good courses he has designed and built is without parallel among current architects: TPC Sawgrass, Harbor Town, Long Cove, Casa de Campo, Blackwolf Run, Whistling Straits, The Golf Club just as starters.  He has trained a number of our favorites all of whom speak highly of him and his work.  But Barney is right; Pete Dye is rarely mentioned when we discuss the "best" architects.  I suspect there are several reasons.  First, I think that Pete's work is a little too recent to be considered a "master" but he is not part of the new wave and thus we don't focus on him.  In a few years I will not be shocked if his work is more highly rated.  Second, by not clearly delineating his work from the work of PB, he has diluted the "brand".  In this case, based on my observation, the work of the father is of a different caliber than that of the son.  Third, his work often has a more manufactured look than that which is popular among this group.  There are some exceptions but Pete moves a lot of dirt and it is apparent.  Perhaps age will soften the look of some of these courses but I do not believe he will approach the natural look of many of our favorites.  Finally, and perhaps most significantly, his courses are hard and I don't think many of us like really hard golf courses.  Of course there are exceptions such as Shinnecock but most of them are older with established reputations.  I carry a handicap that is much lower than Jeff Goldman's but I concur in his observation; if you check your ego on the first tee and play conservatively, most of the Dye courses I have played are difficult but manageable.  I think he has an important place in the history of this discipline.  However I must confess that the manufactured look of many of his courses is a turn off for me and lowers him in my very personal rating.  He still has a very high place.

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is Pete Dye only tolerated at best on this board...
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2004, 04:12:41 PM »
I am going to say something that will go against what almost everyone on this board beleives. I like the kind of architect that has a very recognizable style. For example, you can drop anyone on a pete dye course and it will be obvious that you are on a pete dye course. Same with MacDonald/Raynor and some others. I like that idea a lot. No offence to some of the popular architects of today but there isn't a huge difference in let's say Doak's style or C&C's style. I mean Doak even said that he probably would have designed Sand Hills in much the same way as C&C did. I'm just picking on Doak and C&C because they are the biggest names, but look at any of the modern minimalists and much of there work has a similar look to me, as if they all could have been designed by the same person. Pete Dye has his own complete style, and I love that. Sure, his sons have kind of hijacked his style, but there work is nowhere near as good. For this same reason, Mike Strantz fascinates me, because his work stands out like a sore thumb.

And by the way, I am convinced that Pete Dye courses are more reasonable than people make them out to be. I usually score really well on his courses. His fairways are always very wide, but his greens are strongly defended. Maybe because his greens complexes are so fearsome looking it helps me focus on what i have to do because a bad shot means a tough recovery.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

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