[JakaB]

Last night I watched Nicklaus and Watson play a little match at Pebble Beach just a few years ago and was struck by the simplisitic nature of the course compared to the so called modern minimalists designs.   There were no crazy hairy bunkers with hair and jagged edges for beauties sake....the greens have simple lateral movement that treats your eye to a sense of classical music instead of two cats screwing....the course lets the setting speak for itself without spoon feeding you cosmetic naturallity.   How did modern mininamilism get so busy....why not let Scotland be Scotland and we be us instead of the fad of the over naturalization of nature which never did exist and never will.....I'm tired of the busy, busy, busy look of the modern course..

[mike_malone]

 As I watched a little last night I wondered how the water on the right of #8-#9-#10 affected strategy. Obviously it is beautiful,but does it narrow the golfing options?

[ForkaB]

John

Last time I saw Pebble, many of the bunkers had grown unsightly (to me, but maybe not to the "minimalists"......) nose hair.

You should come over to Scotland more often (i.e. at least once).  Eye candy is pretty non-existant on the courses over here (major, minor and beneath the radar).

[JakaB]

Would Pebble be better with this type of green...

[JakaB]

Mike,

Options on 8....that is exaclty the kind of crap that is killing modern design....your option on 8 is to hit good shots or die...good enough for me..

[TEPaul]

"There were no crazy hairy bunkers with hair and jagged edges for beauties sake...."

John B:

That's because a number of decades ago some goddamned idiot removed all of Chandler Egan's "imitation sand dunes" that were one amazing creation from Pebble Beach! I swear to God, you can fall in love with dumbed down architecture faster than any golfer I know!  

[JakaB]

TEPaul,

I've seen the old pics of those bunkers and they looked out of place and stupid against the ocean backdrop...like too much makeup on a beautiful woman.  

[A_Clay_Man]

John- That last comment, is simply not true. Hitting perfect shots makes EVERY hole easy. It's what happens when you don't hit a perfect shot, where the 8th hole really shines.

A par made on that hole, after the golfer decides not to go for the green, is great beyond description.

The really fascinating variable when playing that famous approach, is the wind.

What's so fascinating about hitting perfect shots?

[mike_malone]

 John,
      I just believe if the thought is "stay away from there" then the golf becomes less fun. How does fishing out a ball ,dropping it, and adding a stroke to your score please you?

[JakaB]

Adam,

What is so wrong with being satisfied...exhuberant or happy..

Mike,

Because the next time I don't get punished see above....

[A_Clay_Man]

That's just not golf.

[JakaB]

Adam,

Before we get off topic...are you saying the modern architect could have improved number 8 by providing more options...I thought it stood as one of the great holes in golf..

[mike_malone]

 I am not asking questions because I already know the answers; I am asking because I want to know the answers.
   
    John,
     
 I see you as the guy on here who sees things "at an angle". I thought you might have some thoughts on three straight holes along the water where it could get a little repetitive if not handled properly. Mind you I have not been there so I can't say from just watching TV whether the water  is a very different part of each of these three holes.

     It seems from the TV that the holes are quite similar.

[JakaB]

Mike,

They may be similar on the x-axis but I think they differ on the y....

[A_Clay_Man]

I don't know how you could extrapolate my comments into asking if modern architects could provide more options. There are plenty of options and as I elluded to, they usually show their metal after one misses the perfect spot.

John, I've golfed the hole maybe 20 times, and advised, many more. When I would golf my ball, and I was 220 in the right rough, what do you think I choose? When I'm advising a 20 handicap, depending on situation, playing short or left are the two prudent plays. For some abilities, the prudent play is way left, usually micro-managing the players best approach distance, allowing for the downhill lie of their third.

Once again, where did I say the hole has no options. I think that's what DS said about the entire course. I will agree there is a proper way to golf the course, with the known preferred spots, being universally accepted.

[Mike Benham]

Would Pebble be better with this type of green...

The size of that green is equal to 2, maybe 3 greens at Pebble.

[JakaB]

I had 18 things to do and thought this thread would have been more interesting by now....but....when I was away I was thinking how could the modern minimalist make better use (more options) of the land good ole number 8 now sits.   I think there is enough room for an option filled short par 4 in the current driving area with the green pushed against the edge of the cliff and a great big ole bunker and a green to test the good player.....it might even be semi-blind....like you need a 12 foot flag pole or something.   Then what a beautiful ball busting par three across the crevis again hugging the cliff with a nice hairy bunker to offset the ocean....nice big bailout left for those options we all need on par 3's...now isn't that facinating Adam....The thing that is really sweet is that with this set up even the corporate hack might make a couple of pars....because he ain't gonna par number 8 the way it stands now..

[cary lichtenstein]

Why screw with #8 at Pebble? Really one of the most wonderful holes ever, ditto #16 at Cypress. I can.t tell you how important those holes were to me during the rounds I played there. Take those holes out of each course, and they drop in ranking in my mind. They are 10+'s

[Bob_Huntley]

"Then 7, instead of being the yawner it is" ........

John, Oh no John, no.

Adam can back me up on this, when the chips are down in serious play and there is a soupcon of a breeze, our little No. 7 is no yawner. No less than Masters champion Ian Woosnam was forced to eat some crow here.

[A_Clay_Man]

  Then what a beautiful ball busting par three across the crevis again hugging the cliff with a nice hairy bunker to offset the ocean....nice big bailout left for those options we all need on par 3's...now isn't that facinating Adam....The thing that is really sweet is that with this set up even the corporate hack might make a couple of pars....because he ain't gonna par number 8 the way it stands now..

Barn- You're just wrong on too many levels to try to get a real handle on it. Firstly, I've negotiated drunk corporate hacks to 3's on #8, par ain't that hard.
And Mr. Huntley is of course correct. #7 is a great hole. Even with no breeze. It may not get your juices pumping, but after reading you for 4 years now, I honestly don't know what makes you wet.

From #6 on, Pebble is a religious experience, be it virgin trek or thousandth.

[JakaB]

Adam,

Damn I am a poor communicator...I love Pebble exaclty as it stands....the point of this thread is how the great modern minimalists would screw up that piece of land if they had a shot at it today....It was my contention that we would lose the simplistic beauty and raw challenge of the place to a busy beauty parlor full of cackling hens talking about options and bunker construction....not to mention rolly polly green within a green green greens...

[JakaB]

Would Pebble be better with this type of green...

The size of that green is equal to 2, maybe 3 greens at Pebble.

The thing I want to know is.....Does a green like the above (which would never be found at a place like Pebble) have any historical perspective or is it some type of modern abomination...

[A_Clay_Man]

I don't know John, many of the modern greens I've come across are flat. It takes real cajones, to build a place like Pinon Hills or Black Mesa with contours extraordinaire. Modern minimalists? Exactly whom do you refer? And come to think of it, some of PB greens can be considered greens within greens. #6 and #14 come first to mind.

[JakaB]

Adam,

Thats a funny thing about modern greens....I can't seem to find these big flat ones everyone talks about...one of my biggest disapointments in Cuscowilla was the artificial looking contour of the greens when compared to the flat smooth running fairways....as opposed to Lookout Mountain where the greens reflected the fairway contour more accurately in a subtle treachery that may be unmatched....It seems the modern minimalists loves to unnaturalize the green surface in a manner that was never done back in the day....The greens of Pebble don't jump in your face like little Lord Pompadores screaming....Look at me, Look at me, I'm a green...

[Tim_Weiman]

John:

I agree with the sentiment Adam expressed about #8 at Pebble. Very few people hit ideal tee shots. When they then face their second shot, the hole really shows its stuff - I mean its options.

Bottom line: I suspect one might learn more about this hole by serving as a caddy than by playing the hole as a good player.

But, more than that, I'm at a loss to understand why you suggest a modern minimalist would have somehow screwed up this hole. Not that I've discussed the subject in depth with every such architect, but I've never heard any suggest they would have tried to build more options into the hole.

It seems like pure fantasy to suggest that any of the leading modern "minimalists" would recommend significant changes to this hole.

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