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Matt_Ward

True number of links courses
« on: November 11, 2004, 11:11:46 AM »
I am in the process in writing a major Irish travel piece itemizing the wonderful courses I played during my most recent visit to the Emerald Isle.

In looking at the information I came across an interesting comment on The European Club's Wesbite which said that there is no more than 160 true links on the planet with Ireland having 51.

Does anyone know if these totals are truly accurate?

Is there a common agreement as to the defintion of what constitutes a "links" course.

As a reference point I would not count Old Head as a links because it is set high above on a peninsula even though it is immediately adjacent to a major body of water.

Be curious from others if the numbers for authentic links courses is really accurate.
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Bob_Huntley

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Re:True number of links courses
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2004, 11:40:04 AM »
Matt,

I think first of all we must define "Links." We have thirty-six holes at MPCC but only one of those holes, Rees Jones 14th hole on the Dunes Course, is right on the water. In my opinion Pebble and Cypress do not qualify, not only because of the terrain, but neither offer the ground game that is synonymous with what we call Links golf.
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Brian_Gracely

Re:True number of links courses
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2004, 11:42:26 AM »
What do you do with 1/2 links courses like MPCC Shore?  Meaning that some of the holes (5-15) might fall into the definition, but the rest wouldn't.
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Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:True number of links courses
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2004, 11:49:33 AM »
It's very tricky on this side of the Atlantic.  There are courses with some (but not all) links holes, others which are by the sea but aren't links, others which are links but are not exactly beside the sea.  If anyone wants to attempt to put together a list as a shooting gallery don't forget Continental Europe (Falsterbo, Helsingborg, Fano Island, Royal Zoute (an example of the third category - arguable), Royal Ostende, Royal Haagsche, Kennemer, Noordwijk, Wimereux, Troia, El Saler (part links) and I suspect there are one or two more on Channel or Atlantic coasts of France.
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re:True number of links courses
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2004, 12:02:05 PM »
Matt,
Read Dr. Robert Price's book, Scotland's Golf Courses for a better, more true definition of the word, links. This will give you the information you need.

There is also a resource for him on this website, and its not in the discussion group either. I'm going to make you look for it because thats where the best writing comes from.
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Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re:True number of links courses
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2004, 12:11:22 PM »
Mark
I agree with you, but where does that place a course like Formby?  Links or not? How about Kilmarnock Barassie, the terain and soil are very linksified, but can it be classified as a links?

Cypress and Pebble are very interesting questions, especially Cypress.
I do not think Pebble has any links "feel" about it at all but cypress somehow does, it must be those beautiful dunes.
Between us as freinds on this websit, why not send in on this thread some suggestions....
As a Brit, please nobody suggest that Whistling Striats can ever be considered as a links!!!!
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Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re:True number of links courses
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2004, 12:12:19 PM »
I got carried away a bit their..sorry it should read.... friends...and website
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ForkaB

Re:True number of links courses
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2004, 12:16:27 PM »
Tommy beat me to the punch, Matt.  If you really want to learn the difference between a real links course and all those posers out there, read Price's book.

The 160 number isn't far off the truth.  I "know" this as I had to learn this (and far too many other trivial facts about links courses) a few years back for a TV quiz show.  50 of thse being in Ireland is also about right.

Mark R. is right too that there are a few courses in the low countries on the Continent which are fairly linkish.  The ones I've seen, however (Royal Zoute, Den Haan), are more hybrid than pure links.

In the USA, the closest I've seen to true links courses are Pacific Dunes and Prairie Dunes.  The defining characteristic is the turf, and not any proximity to the sea.  Links turf is very scarce.  For whatever reason, Pacific Dunes seems to have it while Bandon dunes does not.  One course I know fairly well (Golspie) has 6 links holes, 6 heathland and 6 parkland, all within the same 120 acres or so.  None of the Monterrey Peninsular tracks, including both MPCC courses, Pebble, Spyglass (1-5) and Cypress Point are links courses.  Neither are Shinnecock Hills, NGLA or Friar's Head.  It's all in the dirt (and the geology) and the USA just ain't got it!

Happy writing.
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A_Clay_Man

Re:True number of links courses
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2004, 12:25:41 PM »
Rihc, has once again mentally blocked the backnine at PG. I wonder why?

However, I do believe the plate tectonics that created Kalifornia, is completely different than the alluvial nature of the most common definiton of the word links.

Matt, I suppose highlighting the differeing definitions would make an interesting, comprehensive piece.

 The other definition I like, is the non-returning nines. Which makes PB qualify. ;D
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ForkaB

Re:True number of links courses
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2004, 12:30:44 PM »
Adam

The back nine of PG is lots of fun but links it is not, alas :'(.

Cheers
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Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re:True number of links courses
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2004, 12:34:17 PM »
"On the links the player not only has todeal with the formidable hazards, but also with countless little ones...those beautifully turfed, harmless looking undulations which run through the fairways from tee to green.
Terrain of that sort will yield superlative golf anywhere....The true links were molded by divine hands.Linksland, the fine grasses, the wind made bunkers that defy imitation, the exquisite contours that refuse to be sculptured by hand...all these were given by a duvine dispensation to the British"

            Robert Hunter......The links


Hard to argue with this I suppose
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Matt_Ward

Re:True number of links courses
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2004, 12:58:31 PM »
Rich:

Given the fact you live in Scotland how many "links" courses would you say exist there versus say England?

If Ireland has indeed 50 or so links type courses from the 160 total might it be fair to say it has the best of that type versus the other locations?
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BCrosby

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Re:True number of links courses
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2004, 01:12:40 PM »
"[T]he term 'links' (from the old Scots word 'lynkis' meaning ridges or hummocks or open rough ground) … should only be used to refer to land underlain by sand and gravel… immediately inland from the present coastline."

Robert Price

Man, Sand Hills comes awfully close to qualifying. It is built between dunes formed at the edge of an ancient sea. Of course the sea retreated some 350 million years ago, but what's a couple of hundred million years among friends?

Bob
« Last Edit: November 11, 2004, 01:13:28 PM by BCrosby »
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ForkaB

Re:True number of links courses
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2004, 01:31:39 PM »
Quote from: Matt_Ward on November 11, 2004, 12:58:31 PM
Rich:

Given the fact you live in Scotland how many "links" courses would you say exist there versus say England?

If Ireland has indeed 50 or so links type courses from the 160 total might it be fair to say it has the best of that type versus the other locations?

Matt

I count 83 in Scotland.  Since there are far more than 27 in England and Wales, and I've just checked and Ireland is about right at 50, the total is probably closer to 200.

Bob C

If I'd been smart enough to play there when I had the chance I might well have included Sand Hills. After all, I did give  Praire Dunes a mention!
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Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:True number of links courses
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2004, 02:46:51 PM »
I started making a list of English and Welsh links, beginning in the Channel Isles (and Scilly) and working my way into the South-Western Counties.  Already there were too many question marks.  It's too hard.  If this thread is still on the first page tomorrow I might have a bash at it again putting in absolutely every candidate, leaving it up to others to shoot some of them down.

That first glass of something restorative beckons....
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Brian_Gracely

Re:True number of links courses
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2004, 03:33:05 PM »
Quote
Neither are Shinnecock Hills, NGLA or Friar's Head.  It's all in the dirt (and the geology) and the USA just ain't got it!

Rich,

Are you implying that National Golf Links of America is not a links course?  Are you not aware that CBM defined all the rules and customs of golf on this side of the pond, and if the old rules didn't fit his needs that he'd just make new ones that did?  So the original land under NGLA might not have been a links, but it sure was when he finished and named the course.  Got it, alrighty then....time to get with the program ;)
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ForkaB

Re:True number of links courses
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2004, 03:44:10 PM »
You are of course right, Brian.  And so is Pebble Beach Golf LINKS a links course just as is the latest Grandfather's Royal Jackrabbit Run LINKS at Whistling Patootie a links.  How could I have got it all so wrong...... :'(
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Tom_Doak

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Re:True number of links courses
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2004, 04:26:06 PM »
Brian:  The standard test is that if a course has the word "links" in its name, it is NOT a links.  The only exception to this which I know of is Barnbougle Dunes Golf Links, which is as linksy as they come.

I concur with Rich's numbers.  I think there are about 50 links in Ireland, maybe 75 in Scotland, at least 50 in England, 10-20 in Europe, a couple in South Africa, a couple in New Zealand, and a couple in Australia [besides Barnbougle, Port Fairy and Kennedy Bay appear to be true links; the Mornington Peninsula courses PLAY like links courses but the undulations aren't the same].  In the USA, those handful of holes at Maidstone, possibly something on Cape Cod, the back nine at Pacific Grove, and the two courses in Bandon are all I would really call true links ... although Prairie Dunes and Sand Hills certainly play like one.
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Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:True number of links courses
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2004, 05:55:20 AM »
England and Wales

Here's a first attempt at a list.  I reckon that's 58 definite links courses, 8 part-links and 13 possibles worth considering.  I've ignored Ganton, Sheringham, Royal Cromer and Aldeburgh. Anybody want to add or subtract from the list?  Do check the maths!

Wales

Prestatyn
Rhyl
North Wales
Conwy
Anglesey
Holyhead
Pwllheli (part)
Porthmadog (part)
Nefyn (part)
Royal St David’s
Aberdovey
Borth & Ynyslas
Tenby
Ashburnham
Pennard
Pyle & Kenfig
Royal Porthcawl
14 + 3 part-links

Channel Islands

La Moye
Royal Jersey
Royal Guernsey
3

Isles of Scilly?
1?

Isle of Man

Castletown
1

England

Cornwall

West Cornwall
Trevose
St Enodoc (X2?)
Bude & North Cornwall
Carlyon Bay?
Mullion
6, possibly 8

Devon

Royal North Devon
Saunton (x2)
Warren ?
3, possibly 4

Somerset

Burnham and Berrow
1

Cheshire

Royal Liverpool
Wallasey
Warren
Leasowe (part)
3 + 1 part

Lancashire

West Lancs
Formby
Southport & Ainsdale
Hillside
Royal Birkdale
Hesketh (part)
Fleetwood
Royal Lytham
St Annes Old Links
8 + 1 part

Cumbria

Silloth
Seascale
Furness
The Dunnerholme?
3, possibly 4

Northumberland

Bamburgh Castle (part)
Berwick (Goswick)
Dunstanburgh Castle
Magdalene Fields
3 + 1 part

Durham

Seaton Carew
Hartlepool (part)
1 + 1

Yorkshire

Cleveland
1

Lincolnshire

Seacroft
North Shore (part)
1 + 1 part

Norfolk

Hunstanton
Royal West Norfolk
Gorleston?
Great Yarmouth & Caister
Mundesley?
3, possibly 5

Suffolk

Felixstowe Ferry
1

Kent

Littlestone
Lydd?
Prince’s
Romney Warren (part?)
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal St George’s
Whitstable & Seasalter?
4, possibly 7

Sussex

Rye
Cooden Beach?
1, possibly 2

Hampshire

Hayling
1

Dorset

Bridport & West Dorset?
1?
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Brian_Ewen

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Re:True number of links courses
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2004, 09:42:17 AM »
Leaving myself wide open .

I count 76 courses with some sort of "Links" golf in Scotland .  

What have I missed ? .



Balnagask
Kings Links
Royal Aberdeen
Royal Aberdeen - Silverburn
Murcar
Murcar - 9 Hole
Newburgh on Ythan
Cruden Bay
Cruden Bay - St.Olafs
Peterhead - Old
Peterhead - New
Inverallochy
Fraserburgh - Corbie
Fraserburgh - Rosehill
Rosehearty
Spey Bay
Cullen
Buckpool
Lossiemouth Old
Lossiemouth New
Hopeman
Nairn West
Nairn Dunbar
Fortrose & Rosemarkie
Tain
Royal Dornoch
Royal Dornoch - Struie
Skibo Castle
Golspie
Brora
Reay
Wick
Macrahanish
The Machrie
Irvine
Western Gailes
Glasgow Gailes
Kilmarnock Barassie
Royal Troon
Troon
Old Prestwick
Dundonald
Turnberry - Ailsa
Turnberry - Kintyre
Girvan
Southerness
Powfoot
Dunbar
North Berwick
Muirfield
Gullane No1
Gullane No2
Gullane No3
Longniddery
Luffness
Musselburgh
Leven
Lundin
Elie
Crail - Craighead
Crail - Balcomie
Kingsbarns
St. Andrews - Old
St. Andrews - New
St. Andrews - Jubilee
St. Andrews - Eden
St. Andrews - Strathyrum
Monifeith
Carnoustie
Carnoustie - Burnside
Carnoustie - Buddon
Panmure
Arbroath
Montrose
Montrose - Broomloan
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Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:True number of links courses
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2004, 09:58:21 AM »
Brian,  

Would any of these qualify:

Troon Portland, all 3 Troon Municipals, Wigtownshire County, North Berwick Glen (parts?), Prestwick St Nicholas, West Kilbride?

Is Longniddry links?  

Are there any on any of the islands in addition to Machrie?

It's an impressive list.
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Brian_Ewen

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Re:True number of links courses
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2004, 10:24:23 AM »
Mark
I knew I was little dodgy on my west coast courses .

They are all a Yes , and Yes Longniddry is a mix of Links and Parkland according to their website .

Not sure about the Highlands & Islands .

Brian
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Paul_Turner

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Re:True number of links courses
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2004, 10:26:25 AM »
This could be the first list of World Links.

Mark

Swansea Bay is definitely 1/2 links.

Perranporth!

Isle of Scilly is clifftop. Carlyon Bay I think is too.

Littlehampton (some links).

A couple of iffy ones in Cumbria (9 holes):

St Bees

Silecroft



Frinton on Sea, maybe part.







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can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Matt_Ward

Re:True number of links courses
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2004, 10:48:02 AM »
The issue of defintion boils down to a few simple issues ...

If a course has A HOLE OR A FEW HOLES that are links like does that qualify the ENTIRE facility as a links?

At what point does a course assume the ranks of links -- is it when just a few holes exist -- is it when at least half the course reaches that point.

Clearly, if one uses the lowest threshold -- a hole or a few holes -- then the total number of courses counted in such a category will be higher.

For those in the know what country has the best top 10 links type courses?
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Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:True number of links courses
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2004, 11:47:30 AM »
Matt,

That's why I added the word part- to a number of courses.  You have to define not only links but how much of the course has to be links to qualify for inclusion.

I don't think there'd be much debate about the ones we've named so far.  We might have forgotten one or two, however.

It probably doesn't matter as far as your writing is concerned.  'About 200' is probably accurate enough for that but clearly the scholar in you wants the exact number.

One country's top 10 links?  I think it boils down to a toss up between Scotland and Ireland.  
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