[Patrick_Mucci]

When Steve Wynn had his vision of a designing and building great golf course in the middle of a desert flood plain, that would serve to attract his target market and beyond, he succeeded with the arrival of Shadow Creek.

He recently acquired the old Desert Inn golf course and hotel, and is building a new casino, hotel and golf course.
He has again retained Fazio as the architect.

Will his new golf course receive the same accolades afforded Shadow Creek when it first opened.

The old Desert Inn golf course was on a flat piece of property.
Rumor has it that vast amounts of dirt have been moved.

Has anyone been on the property, or seen the golf course up close ?

When is it due to open ?

[Dale_McCallon]

Patrick,

It seems like your title says it all--Wynn is a marketing genius and he will find a way to make this course "great" regardless of what it really is.  

I know nothing about the course, but Wynn has already shown no amount of money is too much (Shadow Creek on the golf side, Bellagio on the hotel/casino side).  So what if what he produces, purists hate--the masses love and his properties get great marks.  So I think you can count on this place becoming the "it" place in Vegas when it opens.  Hopefully, the place will live up to the billing.

[Joel_Stewart]

Will his new golf course receive the same accolades afforded Shadow Creek when it first opened.

The old Desert Inn golf course was on a flat piece of property.
Rumor has it that vast amounts of dirt have been moved.

Has anyone been on the property, or seen the golf course up close ?

When is it due to open ?

Pat:

I was in Las Vegas recently and looked it over.  I meant to take pictures but forgot my camera.  I can't imagine that the course will receive the type of publicity that Shadow Creek did but don't ever under estimate Steve Wynn.   Since the course is on property, it doesn't have the mystique the Shadow Creek has.  Many of the holes where ready to play last year and the course when I saw it in August looked fully operational.

The old Desert Inn course had plenty of property but Wynn also used the tennis courts which were in the middle of the property.  Wynn also purchased a number of homes on the property but he is adding villas along Desert Inn Blvd which take up quite a bit of space.  There are two major dips in the course, countless trees (thousands) and mounding galore.  Many of the mounds have trees on them and are hard to distinguish.  It looks like a sister course to Shadow Creek in many ways.

[Jfaspen]

I remember reading something about a wynn project that would have been based in a canyon, in the vegas area.  It was going to be a very expensive project and almost a sequel to shadow creek.  

sorry I can't remember more details.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here are some details from cybergolf.com

www.cybergolf.com/state.asp?stateID=33&newsID=1154

[Tom_Doak]

Pat:

I would be shocked if the new course was comparable to Shadow Creek.  For the simple reason that it has to compete with Shadow Creek ... and if they somehow manage to succeed, it will still suffer by comparison because it's not the original.

It's like the Stadium Course at PGA West vs. the TPC at Sawgrass.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat,
I think the Fazio name value will drive all of it. He's the best, or so they would have you believe......

I'll miss the old Desert Inn from the hotel to the Golf Course. It had some of the best gambling in the desert, and they treated you great in the restaurants and the bar, yet didn't go over-kill. I would think Howard Hughes thought it was pretty cool too.

One time I was waiting to go off the first tee one warm late morning in May, I saw Telly Savalas tee it off in a speedo and a gold necklace and that's about it! (He was wearing flaps/sandals though and even swung in them!) He has left me with that picture to this day. It made me sort of uncomfortable but envious at the same time! Telly was certainly a ladies man.

Who loves you baby!

[Jim Franklin]

Thanks, Tommy, for that visual.

[NAF]

Wynn's real genius.. the stock price of his company.  WYNN is the symbol.. up 106% this year and over 1yr up 170%.  The casino doesnt even open until spring 2005!  I drive by it all the time when I'm in Vegas--it is right by a nice fashion center that my fiance likes..But I've been unable to snag a look at the golf course.. Everyone in Vegas is raving about what they here about the resort and course..   Supposedly, the resort's opulence will easily surpass Bellagio..

[Joel_Stewart]

I remember reading something about a wynn project that would have been based in a canyon, in the vegas area.  It was going to be a very expensive project and almost a sequel to shadow creek.  

Wynn bought enough land at Shadow Creek to build a second course and had the idea of digging out this canyon for the first tee.  He wanted something like Riverias first hole.

The MGM/Mirage hired Tom Fazio to build a course about 3 years ago but the project hasn't moved forward.

[Jerry Kluger]

I met Savalas at a golf course in New Jersey while he was filming his TV show in New York; he could not have been nicer.  He stood with people to have pictures taken and he must have been with his agent as he had photos with him which he signed to whomever wanted one.

I have to say that with respect to Fazio and this project I would much sooner that he and Wynn build a course like Shadow Creek as opposed to a course like Bali Hi.  There are other courses in the area which are very nice but when you have a flat piece of property I'd much rather see SC as opposed to BH.  The biggest issue will be how much it will cost to play the course since they will no doubt have to make it very expensive so the high rollers think they are getting something for their play at the tables.  

[david h. carroll]

Remember, it is the only golf course on the Strip.

[Jim Franklin]

Bali Hai is on the Strip.

[Dan Kelly]

I sure hope they have one of those computer-choreographed fountain-and-opera shows, like at the Bellagio, in one of the water hazards.

That's Vegas, baby!

[Larry_Rodgers]

At the risk of some confidentiality clause in my contract, I would say "LeReve" has a more open feel to it.  Shadow Creek has a feeling of "all to yourself " as the hills prvented seeing other golfers during the round.

Le Reve is pretty well ready to play right now. The landscaping is wonderful and should be open for play sometime next year.

[jg7236]

Patrick you are indeed right, Mr. Steve Wynn is a marketing genius.  Everything he touches turns to gold. All of you are going to be amazed of this new golf course, and mega multi-billion dollar hotel casino resort.  I have heard, and seen, and you all will get your chance in 2005.

Cheers,

John

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Pat:

I would be shocked if the new course was comparable to Shadow Creek.  For the simple reason that it has to compete with Shadow Creek ... and if they somehow manage to succeed, it will still suffer by comparison because it's not the original.

That's true.  

But, has enough time passed since Shadow Creek hit the scene that the new course will stand in it's own light, on its own merits, and not the shadow of Shadow Creek ?

The competition aspect is interesting.

And it may be a question of form versus substance.

On the substance end of competition, the bottom line, I think the new golf course will out compete Shadow Creek.

But, as to form, especially architectural form and merit, we'll only know when the golf course opens for play and evaluation.

The new course has a distinct advantage of being "ON" the property, and not requiring a half hour to one hour drive depending on traffic, which continues to get worse.

That "convenience" factor would seem to be extremely appealing to those staying at A hotel.  The advantage of the self contained nature of the facility, golf, swiming, gambling, etc., etc., would seem to give the advantage to Wynn's new golf course.  It's all here for you.

Other courses, which hotel/casino's have opened, also require a, not inconsequential ride to and from, hence, I believe that from a practical perspective, the new course will do quite well, competitively.

Artistically, .... time will tell.[/color]

It's like the Stadium Course at PGA West vs. the TPC at Sawgrass.

TPC was done in 1981 and revised by Dye in 1983 and the Stadium course at PGA West came only three years later, so I'd agree with you that the impact of PGA West was greatly muted by Pete's work, only a few years earlier at TPC.

However, it will have been close to 16 years from the day that Shadow Creek opened in 1989, until the day that Wynn's new course opens in 2005, and as such, I don't think Shadow Creek will have the same drag on Wynn's new course that TPC had on PGA Stadium West.[/color]

Larry Rodgers,

I'm hoping to visit in May 2005.

Do you think it will be open to guests by then ?

[jg7236]

Wynn Las Vegas will be open to all Spring of 2005, I think around April.

[Emmett]

April 28

[Tommy_Naccarato]

You guys are all very confused in your definitions of GREATNESS.

That's all I'm going to say--thats it, so don't think your going to get an argument out of me!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

In looking at the first picture in the Shadow Creek book, and the picture adjacent to Tom Fazio's introduction, you can't really believe that Steve Wynn and Tom Fazio didn't produce a great achievement, and a great golf course in the midst of a desert flood plain.

There comes a time, no matter how distasteful you are of Fazio's work, when you must give the Devil his due.

In Shadow Creek, they built a great golf course where nothing,  absolutely nothing, existed.

[A_Clay_Man]

The new DI is built on 120 acres.

Should it prove to be intimate?

 I assume on a tight site, one way to make it play to today's needed length, would be to have criss crossing, or shared acreage on holes. Is that true? And, are there other ways to achieve intimacy, with length?


Pat, you said

On the substance end of competition, the bottom line, I think the new golf course will out compete Shadow Creek

I have absolutely no doubt you are right about DI winning any bottomline competition. But, you do seem to be in error in the subtext of this thread. The "marketing" of  SC golf course, and in general, the "substance of the competition" doesn't exist. It isn't about the golf course's bottomline.

If that's what you were implying?

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick,

You may be right about the bottom line, but not necessarily ... long ago a friend told me that you make the most money in the golf business by producing limited-edition stuff for the high end, and everything I've seen since indicates that he is right.  

If you count the money that certain individuals lost at The Mirage as part of Steve Wynn's bottom line at Shadow Creek, then the new course has some serious catching up to do.

But I wasn't talking about bottom line; I was talking about architectural quality.  No one has produced anything from uninteresting ground which is as good as Shadow Creek in the fifteen years since it opened, so what are the odds that the Desert Inn course will be better?

Bet you could get at least 3:1 against in some Vegas casino.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

No one has produced anything from uninteresting ground which is as good as Shadow Creek in the fifteen years since it opened

I could debate this with you.

Maybe not on here though.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

The one to two hours that golfers save in commuting time will translate into more time spent in the casino.

I think it will be hard to TOP Shadow Creek, unless he's made a substantive departure in both the concept and the design principles.

I'd agree, I don't know of any courses in the last 15 years that came from a more barren, uninteresting site.

Come to think of it, you'd have to go a long way prior to Shadow Creek's arrival to find a site as challenging as Shadow Creek's.  Can you think of any ?  Tommy ?

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