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Matt_Ward

Got a course? How bout a mountain too?
« on: October 25, 2004, 05:09:47 PM »
I have been watching quite closely the promotional efforts of a new Tom Weiskopf design in Montana -- approximately 35-40 minutes south of Bozeman and literally on the outskirts of the property line with Yellowstone Park and Wyoming.

In fact -- the name of the club is The Yellowstone Club. The 7,200+ yard par-72 course should be completely open next summer -- 10 holes opened this past September.

Tim and Edra Blixseth are the visionaries at the heart of Yellowstone Club. Mr. Blixseth achieved a high level of success in the timber business, and is co-founder of one of the country’s most respected lumber companies. Edra Blixseth was the operating partner of a successful hotel and restaurant company, as well as owner of seven other restaurants.

If the name of Tim Blixseth sounds familiar he is the man responsible for the creation of Porcupine Creek -- the exclusive private retreat in Rancho Mirage, CA. Try finding the location of Porcupine Creek -- truly hidden indeed !

Not only is Weiskopf doing the private 18 but there will be an upscale layout nearby called Spanish Peaks. That should open sometime in '06.

What's fascinating about the development is the deep pocket resources being used to generate interest and ultimately membership. Roughly 180 members have come on board and I have been really fasinated by the wherewithal to purchase full page global edition advertisement in the Friday edition of the WSJ on a repeated basis. Such costs aren't cheap.

What makes the story even more interesting is that the facility owns exclsuive use of a mountain area for private skiing..

One other news note -- during the construction process the facility entered into an agreement to pay a fine of $100,000 in regards to a lawsuit filed by the US Attorney's ofice for that part of the country. I believe the issues were tied to the construction process and key issues affecting the local environment. The facility did not admit any guilt over its actions but simply paid the fine and had the matter settled.

Weiskopf seems to be most comfortable with designs that are about ultra-private gated / now private mountain retreats. I have not walked the site yet, but was told by club officials that the course will feature about 500 foot of elevation changes and be quite playable for all levels.

Just when you think the economy and golf market cannot sustain more courses you get this major effort to sweep away all others. I'llbe very much interested to see if Weiskopf can go beyond what he designed solo at Lahontan in Truckee, CA and Silverleaf in Scottsdale. Particularly, as it relates to his steadfast desire to include a "driveable par-4" into the mixture.

We shall see ...

TEPaul

Re:Got a course? How bout a mountain too?
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2004, 05:38:22 PM »
"What makes the story even more interesting is that the facility owns exclsuive use of a mountain area for private skiing."

Big deal! I think the story is far more interesting about Kim Bassinger buying that entire town in Georgia. When the press asked her why in the world she bought a whole town in Georgia she told them because that's where she first got laid!
« Last Edit: October 25, 2004, 05:39:30 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Got a course? How bout a mountain too?
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2004, 05:41:33 PM »
The trouble with you Matt Ward is you're way too impressed with the rich and materialistic people in golf!   ;) :)

Matt_Ward

Re:Got a course? How bout a mountain too?
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2004, 07:27:46 PM »
TEPaul:

My only entrance to the "rich and famous" is through the two word sign that appears at many of the clubs --

DELIVERY ENTRANCE !!! ;D

Dan Kelly

Re:Got a course? How bout a mountain too?
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2004, 08:02:13 PM »
My only entrance to the "rich and famous" is through the two word sign that appears at many of the clubs --

DELIVERY ENTRANCE !!! ;D

What are you delivering?  8)
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Matt_Ward

Re:Got a course? How bout a mountain too?
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2004, 08:07:00 PM »
Dan:

If I told you and everyone else then such an entree for me might not be available. :o

Steve_ Shaffer

Re:Got a course? How bout a mountain too?
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2004, 08:40:55 PM »
Matt

Weiskopf is also doing another high end development in Jackson Hole, WY. Check out:

 www.snakerivercanyonranch.com

Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Craig Sweet

Re:Got a course? How bout a mountain too?
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2004, 09:29:25 PM »
The Yellowstone Club and Spanish Peaks? Yes, well, lets see how often they kill the greens each winter.


Craig Sweet

Re:Got a course? How bout a mountain too?
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2004, 09:38:53 PM »
Oh boy! This is too precious! From the Snake River Canyon Resort website:

"This April on the wide, slow water of the Big Hole River, an
epic salmon hatch will lead to a three-day period of
stunning fishing. Retreating to nearby Wisdom and
Dillon, Montana, only for food, the fortunate few anglers
on the river will begin the season by reeling in the biggest
brown trout of the year.
By June, dry fly angling for Snake River cutthroat on the
curving South Fork, will begin to peak, with Pale Morning
Duns and Big Horn Sulphurs (size 18 and 20) fooling
hefty natives and bringing them to the surface.
And, in September, the Green Drakes will take over.
Tickling the fancy of the native cuts on the main body of
the Snake River, these dry flies will herald the annual
arrival of outstanding catch-and-release fishing and
unparalleled views of the Teton Range and the Snake River
Canyon in spectacular fall colors."

This is hilarious stuff!!  The golf course/resort is in Jackson Hole, WY or close to Jackson.  The Big Hole River is several hours....probably 3-4 hours away in Montana!  The "hatch" they speak of is the salmon fly hatch and it occurs in late May-mid-June. And there are so many fisherman that there is NO SUCH THING as a "fortunate few". And the green drake hatch, as far as I know, occurs in June, NOT Sept.

I guess it isn't about accuracy or honesty, it's all about SELLING a lifestyle/feeling/oh so speacial way to spend your money on something hip and cool!

Gee, I wonder if the golf will be "honest"?

cary lichtenstein

Re:Got a course? How bout a mountain too?
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2004, 09:41:52 PM »
great web site
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Steve_ Shaffer

Re:Got a course? How bout a mountain too?
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2004, 11:27:54 PM »
Matt

Where are all the buyers of these high end developments coming from? Here's another in Jackson Hole, WY from Rees Jones:

Situated on 700 acres of Wyoming ranch land, this exclusive private course will incorporate natural creeks, lakes, wetlands, native grasslands and spectacular views of the Teton Mountains. Scheduled to open fall 2005.

www.3creekranch-jh.com

Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

DMoriarty

Re:Got a course? How bout a mountain too?
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2004, 01:39:36 AM »
Craig,  They've no need to sweat the details on this stuff . . . after all the people who join will be driving up to Wisdom expecting to catch salmon.

Craig Sweet

Re:Got a course? How bout a mountain too?
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2004, 08:24:56 AM »
Catch salmon! In the case of the Big Hole that would have to be Atlantic Salmon. Now THAT would be either one very strong and amazing fish, or a fish too tired to spawn!!

Oh well, they can temper their disapointment that they caught no salmon with a 3-4 hour ride back to Jackson Hole, and a round of golf on their exclusive, but heavily winter damaged  course. :)

JakaB

Re:Got a course? How bout a mountain too?
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2004, 08:31:21 AM »
Craig,

What's with you and this winter kill stuff....do you think every course in WY is a disaster or just this one..

Craig Sweet

Re:Got a course? How bout a mountain too?
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2004, 08:38:10 AM »
I think its pretty difficult to avoid winter damage on the greens when you're building golf courses at 7500 feet and the snow often comes well before the ground is frozen and stays around until well into April or early May.

Of course you can, and probably will, cover them, but then you run the risk of smoking them real good when you get one of those winters with little snow, and a sunny blue sky warm up in mid February  or March.


JakaB

Re:Got a course? How bout a mountain too?
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2004, 08:47:19 AM »
Craig,

Is it that much easier in Montana.....do you see Montana getting passed by while WY is growing golf wise....What does Montana have on Wyoming...I am calling your Montana bias out...
« Last Edit: October 26, 2004, 08:47:52 AM by John B. Kavanaugh »

Craig Sweet

Re:Got a course? How bout a mountain too?
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2004, 08:54:42 AM »
Montana has some terrific golf from East to West...and Montana has its share of exclusive golf communities.  Winter damage is always going to be a problem here, but on the other hand, like Wyoming it is very dry in Montana and summer turf diesease is never a huge problem.

I have to head to work (its 6:45am here) and blow out the irrigation system, but when I'm home tonight I'll give you a run down on some of the golf opportunities here.  Golf in Montana is generally inexpensive and accessible to everyone. That is a very good thing.

 ;D

Matt_Ward

Re:Got a course? How bout a mountain too?
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2004, 12:18:04 PM »
Steve:

The "selling" of The Yellowstone Club is being pushed through intimate encounters with deep pocket folks in certain cities in the USA.

I was able to attend a function of this type in the Big Apple at the NYC Racquet Club on Park Avenue. The folks in attendance were not hesitant to cut checks and proceed full bore ahead. If there's a recession it sure as hell isn't with the folks I talked to.

What's amazing is that the golf season in that part of the country is actually at least a full month to even two months shorter than what you would get in the immediate Denver area.

Frankly, the golf side of the equation is the "extra" the focus is really on the skiing side.

Steve -- the new Rees Jones design in Jackson is called 3 Creek Ranch and is supposed to be well done from the realy reports I have heard. They had a very soft opening in late September -- the first full season is next year.

Dan Kelly

Re:Got a course? How bout a mountain too?
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2004, 01:28:22 PM »
Next from the producers of "Desperate Housewives": "Intimate Encounters at the Racquet Club."
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Tom_Doak

Re:Got a course? How bout a mountain too?
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2004, 03:34:30 PM »
Matt:

I'll be interested to find out if those investors know what they're buying.  I was in Yellowstone this summer, and someone remarked to me that with the golf course at 8000 feet they are going to have a very short season.

The mountain idea is a nice one ... about half the private projects I've looked at lately have hunting or fishing as part of the picture as well as golf.  Our Washington project is offering homeowners everything from private ice-skating ponds to horseback riding and snowmobiling.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2004, 03:37:52 PM by Tom_Doak »

Brad Swanson

Re:Got a course? How bout a mountain too?
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2004, 04:22:18 PM »
For Pete's sake!  I live in Denver for 5 years, and besides myself and Doug Wright, there's not a peep here about golf in Colorado or anywhere else in the U.S. Rockies.  I move away, and am under intense treatment for mountain detox, and all I find here is discussion about golfing all over in the Rockies (with some pictures to make things even worse).  ENOUGH ALREADY!! :'( ;)

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

Matt_Ward

Re:Got a course? How bout a mountain too?
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2004, 04:24:51 PM »
Tom D:

The focus of places like Yellowstone is not about the golf being the central focus. I don't believe the people I spoke to  at the NYC Racquet Club highlighted the Tom Weiskopf designed layout as the first among equals for them.

In this case -- skiing is the top dog. The golf is merely the summer distraction to keep those who enjoy a game to stay at the facility during those months.

What's quite interesting is the big time push by many heavy duty deep pocket new facilities to sell the "family" concept as the primary differentiation between themselves and their competitors.

No doubt the season is quite short -- I find that out when playing The Raven at Three Peaks in Silverthorne, CO when wind conditions and cool temperatures reared their head in July!!!

RE Blanks

Re:Got a course? How bout a mountain too?
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2004, 04:26:27 PM »

Andy Levett

Re:Got a course? How bout a mountain too?
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2004, 04:28:22 PM »
If you think the golf is lame and overpriced the skiing community is even more derisive about the wintersports.
According to Ski magazine: "With 5,000 acres, five lifts and a 3,100-foot vertical drop, Pioneer will be one of the largest ski areas in the nation when it's finished."
Wow. Zermatt (not the biggest in Europe but arguably the best) has 60 lifts and a vertical drop of 7,480feet. Even the summer skiing on the glacier is a longer vertical drop. Weekly lift ticket seems expensive to me at about $250...

DMoriarty

Re:Got a course? How bout a mountain too?
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2004, 08:12:32 PM »
I am also very curious about whether they will be able to keep the growing grass alive.    

I'm no Super, but I'd imagine that it will be tricky to keep the grass growing.  At what temp does freeze kill summer grass?  

Some stats I found interesting:

In nearby Big Sky (a lower elevation by 600-1200 ft) there is a 60% probability that the low temp will drop below +25 F on or after June 1st, and below +33 F on or after July 11.  


The low temp drops to +32 F or lower an average of:

27.9 days in April;
21.1 days in May;
9.2 days in June;
1.9 days in July;
3.9 days in August;
16 days in September;
27.3 days in October.

There is a course in Big Sky which seems to have green grass in the summer, but it is in the valley.
________________________________


Andy,

Believe it or not, 3100 ft. vertical and 5000 skiable acres is pretty impressive for the United States.  For comparison sake, the Yellowstone Club borders Big Sky Resort which has the most vertical of any ski mountain in the U.S. at 4350 vertical feet.

Other areas you might know:

Vail, CO has a 3400 ft. vertical and 5200 skiable acres;
Park City, UT 3100 ft./3300 acres;  
Jackson Hole WY 4100 ft./2500 acres (plus 3000+  acres back country terrain;)  
Sqwaw Valley 2800 ft./4000 acres.

As stats go, not even Canada can compete with the alps.  I think that Whistler/Blackcomb is the biggest (by vertical) and it has a mere mile of vertical (5280 ft.), only 8100 skiable acres, and just 33 lifts.

The alps are just plain bigger, with mountains starting lower and going higher.  But while they may seem like bunny hills to you, one can have a pretty good time skiing over here.  

For what it is worth, I think that TYC now has 8+ lifts. Which seems like plenty to accomodate their tiny membership.  

By the way, do you think large number of lifts necessarily a good thing?   Over here more lift capacity often indicates overly crowded slopes.  For example, some of the California resorts can move around 50,000 people per hour up the mountain.  If they had this kind of capacity at TYC then in one hour the entire population of Bozeman Mt (nearest "city") could ride up the mountain, twice!

IMO, one of the most telling statistical measure is skiers per acre per hour.   But you dont see that one much.



« Last Edit: October 26, 2004, 11:00:20 PM by DMoriarty »

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