My brother is coming over to Scotland next April for his honeymoon, and his wife-to-be is letting him play a few rounds of golf while he's here. (I'm not asking...) He readily admits to being a "name whore" - I've succeeding in convincing him to play North Berwick, but he wants the other two places we play to be Open courses. (That's not negotiable.) Muirfield will be one of them, but assuming that the Old Course isn't an option, and that we're not going to Carnoustie, which would you recommend: the Ailsa course at Turnberry, or the championship course at Troon? As I'm going with him, I'm interested primarily in the architectural comparison and not anything to do with facilities, conditioning, etc.

Thanks in advance for your advice!

Cheers,
Darren

Darren:  this is supposed to be about HIM, not you, right?  So we should consider which of the two HE will get more of a kick out of, correct?  Of course you are tagging along, so your needs do count...    But you've played both many times already, right?

I gather money is no object?  Neither of these places is cheap for the foreign visitor, so unless you have some way to soften the blow, both will be very expensive... but Turnberry is extremely so.  This should be kept in mind.  Of course one only lives once and should not put a price tag on life experiences, but still, full disclosure is a good thing too.

So does your brother even care about "architecture"?  Not many golfers do... If he's demanded that it be Open courses only, well... it seems to me he's not gonna care if he misses some cool Colt bunkering or a redan here or there or anything else of the architectural sort....

How old is your brother?  I think one has to be at least 35 or so to have the requisite historical appreciation for Turnberry, given the greatest thing ever to happen there occurred in 1977 (Nicklaus v. Watson).  Seems to me most want to play the course to relive THAT, or to take in the fantastic views, and play the oceanside holes....

Sorry for all the questions.  But it helps to get this all straight before one gives recommendations.

And based on all of this, if my assumptions are correct (I'm thinking he's younger and doesn't care about Jack v. Tom that much), I'd say take him to Troon.  Far more cool things have happened there lately, not the least of which being the most recent Open.  It is fun to try to recreate what one has seen on TV, and that will work much better on Troon than on Turnberry.  Troon also offers a wonderful 36 hole day, with golf on the Portland and the Old course with lunch in the middle, which makes for great fun.  Troon does have much more of a "club" feel also, as opposed to Turnberry which is most definitely an American-style resort.  That is, the course surely is a true links, and not American at all, but all the surroundings really do remind one much more of Pebble Beach than Muirfield, if that makes any sense.  I'm thinking your brother will get more of a kick out of the Scottish club than the fancy resort.

BUT... this is all trumped if your brother is 35+ and especially if he is a fan of either Jack or Tom.  If that's the case, take him to Turnberry.  One simply has to see that in person at least once if one is a fan of either of those golf greats.

So you can see I made not a single comment about the "architecture" of either course.  Why?  Because to me it's a wash - they are both fantastic golf courses and really equal.  That being the case, one makes one's decision based on extraneous factors.

TH

Darren:

Mr. Gracely is wise - heed his counsel.  Of course he might have just cost you something in four figures, but you would be a favored brother-in-law forever.  That is a very good status to have (speaking from experience).

The main thing though is that this simply can't just be all about architecture.  Not for an admitted name-whore who only wants to play Open courses.

If that does become negotiable, well... Turnberry's Kintyre course is damn fun and your bro may end up preferring it to the Ailsa... and Western Gailes is right there too, which damn well may be the best of the bunch, Ailsa and Troon Old included....

But that is not negotiable.  Brian's right in suggesting an inclusion of Prestwick - you could bag on the Portland part of the Troon day and do that instead and though it will cost you, well... that is one perfect golf day, methinks.

TH

Bob, that is quite well-assessed.  And it might surprise you that I'd suggest Troon, given my traditional dislike for that course.  But I came to respect it a lot more when I played it last summer, so here we are.

My recommendation of Troon is based on Darren's brother being a name-whore and wanting Open courses ONLY.  Of course both are Open courses, but if one really wants the best bang for the interest buck there, how can one go wrong playing the course on which the most recent Open was held?  I'm just thinking he'd play Turnberry and enjoy it, yes, but always wonder "well how well could I have held up to Els at a REALLY tough Open course" or something of the like.

Based on pure plain FUN of play, and visceral views and aesthetic feeling, well... Turnberry is the superior golf course.  It is a blast to play, where Troon is more of a "test", or yes, a slog.  But the holes from 7-12 are all great fun... 1-6 are easy to score on, in the normal wind... then you battle as well as you can come home from 13-18... In the proper mind-set even this slog can be fun.  One just must lower his expectations.

Oh well, what the hell, he can't go truly wrong with either.  It's gonna come down to really what movitates the other Kilfara.  Is it comparison to Els/Hamilton et al and a tough challenge, or fun and a view (with plenty of challenge also)?

TH

I believe Turnberry now requires a stay at the hotel to play the Aisla, does it not?  (Perhaps that's only during the high season, and not during April)  The spa could be a plus with the wife, but just the night there and the golf is easily $500, Troon will be significantly less, even if they've "upgraded" their prices in the wake of this summer's Open.

I kind of like the suggestion of playing Troon and skipping the afternoon round at the Portland in favor of Prestwick.  Providing he can convince his wife she meant "three days of golf" and not "three rounds of golf"

If he's truly a "name whore" it probably wouldn't take him much convincing to play the course that held the first dozen Opens.  Personally I think Prestwick would be capable of holding its own hosting an Open today if it weren't for the issue of where to put the gallery and the tents.

Turnberry is a magnificant course to look at, but I think the golf is better at Troon, personally.

Robert:

Maybe the rules are different for locals?

In setting this up last summer, we were charged more for the 18 holes at Turnberry Ailsa (175 pounds) than the entire 36 plus lunch at Troon (150 pounds).  We were also told quite specifically and clearly we did have to stay at the Turnberry resort to play the Ailsa.

Now we were a group of 12, so maybe that's the reason... and I have heard that people can get around this "must stay to play" rule at Turnberry... But I sure do think that is the general rule.

In any case, neither of these courses come cheaply.  That's why I assumed from the start money won't be an object here for Darren.  

And if that's the case, then bagging on Troon Portland and heading over to play Prestwick remains a darn fine idea... but what the hell, if that's gonna be allowable, and one can get on Ailsa without staying there, then why not the morning at Troon and the afternoon on the Ailsa?

I assume it being a honeymoon, one round of golf will be tolerated... an entire day of it might require requisite time at the spa for the fairer half, if it is tolerate at all, if it is even what one wants to do on one's honeymoon...

 

Turnberry BLOWS AWAY Troon, in a landslide!!!

Darren:

Sweetness is my trade in life.  

BUT....if your brother is really a name-whore and demands Open courses - which is ALL you told us (all relevant information, right?) - I do think he'd get much more of a kick out of Troon than Turnberry, for the reasons I stated.  

BUT... Turnberry is much more "fun" to play and most definitely has better views.  If he's into fun and aesthetics more than being a name whore and demanding Open courses, than absolutely, do Turnberry.  

Note that his wife could do the spa wherever you play... they are right next to each other and the spa does offer a la carte services.

As you can see, I am sweet, but I don't give up easily.

 

Darren,

I disagree with Tom H here.  I am only 35 years old and was only 8 when the 'duel in the sun' happened but have watched it on video and love it.

Don't forget the White Shark won there as well as Nick Price...
and you get photos like these..



or this one...



It is in my top 5 of courses that I enjoy playing in Europe but I haven't played Troon yet.

Cheers,

Brian

ps off to Ireland on Friday to play the following:
Doonbeg, Ballybunion, Lahinch, Waterville and Kilarney..

Tom, my brother is a "name whore" to the extent that he wanted me to fax him my acceptance letter from Muirfield so that he could show it around his office and impress people. His desire to play Turnberry has nothing to do with Nicklaus/Watson and everything (well, at least something) to do with the fact that the course looks cool in the "Tiger Woods 2005" computer game. Does that tell you a bit about the raw material I'm dealing with?

My brother is a neat kid in a lot of ways, but at heart he's a good ol' boy who took up the game recently and enjoys the typical Joe Sixpack experience - complete with carts, mulligans, gimmes and what-not. I'm looking forward to having four rounds alone with him in Scotland and hopefully deprogramming him a bit, but we'll see what happens when he gets here...

Cheers,
Darren

Turnberry hands down