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Paul_Turner

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Roller Coaster Golf: Eastward Ho!
« on: October 17, 2004, 09:34:26 PM »
Mass is my favourite state for golf.  Had a very brief sneak look at Fowler's Eastward Ho! (mostly the front 9) and in my view, it's uniquely brilliant.  

The tees were being rebuilt and it looked like some bunker work had recently been completed so some of the pics aren't from ideal angles.


1st...lots of rain the night before...puddle.


2nd tee


2nd looking back.


3rd tee.

4th...tee to the left.


5th tee


5th looking back


6th

6th fairway!

6th looking back.

7th, filled bunker?

8th

8th

9th

11th

12th
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Don Dinkmeyer

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Re:Roller Coaster Golf: Eastward Ho!
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2004, 10:47:13 PM »
Great pictures - roller coaster is definitely the descriptor...

I can't imagine they moved any dirt to get it to look that way. The proverbial "not an even lie on any fairway"!


TEPaul

Re:Roller Coaster Golf: Eastward Ho!
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2004, 05:37:36 AM »
I've felt for a few years now that the golf course I'd most like to see and study in the United States is Fowler’s Eastward Ho! The reasons are Cornish & Whitten’s description of Fowler as ‘Herbert Fowler was perhaps the most naturally gifted architect of his time’, followed by a quote from Bernard Darwin, “I never knew anyone who could more swiftly take in the possibilities of a piece of ground.”

In a way I was surprised to see Fowler designed Eastward Ho! In 1922---I would’ve logically thought it may have been designed perhaps ten years earlier----particularly in light of the remarkable strides and notoriety some of the Heathland architecture was getting before 1912 or so, certainly including Fowler’s noteworthy Walton Heath that C&W remark may’ve been more notable and noticed than even Park’s and Colt’s Sunningdales as a breakthrough in early architectural style and type.

In any case, the real noteworthy aspect of Eastward Ho! To me is the extreme topography of the mid-body of many of the course’s holes----what Paul Turner refers to as “roller coaster golf”. It would seem that this style of architecture is very much “of an era” and highly unusual today for that reason. I don’t think it’s any secret that this type or style of architecture today generates a really wide spectrum of opinion----from real popularity to real unpopularity. To me the fact that it’s unpopular with many American golfers today is truly a shame but that sentiment very likely reflects that this type and style of architecture was dedicatedly avoided in the modern age of architecture for a variety of reasons.

It appears that many of the holes of Eastward Ho! Are reminiscent of a type of highly topographical hole (in the mid-body) I personally just love. Good examples today would be Shinneock’s #10, PVGC’s #8, Misquamicutt’s #1 and #9, Friar’s Head”s #9 and #16 and certainly NGLA’s #2 and #16!! The unfortunate reasons for the lack of popularity of highly topographic hole mid-bodies today is likely a certain amount of blindness or lack of visibility as well as perhaps too much unpredictability in where a golfer's ball will end up.

One of the things I’d suggest on holes like those is that it really can and does give the architect the opportunity to go light or very minimal on bunkering and just go with the effects of playability on highly topographical ground for interesting  and challenging golf.

Another thing that truly interests me about the likes of those early Heathland architects, according to C&W, is that they really did shape greens and tees more than most of us might expect. That would certainly seem to be the case just looking at the photo above of green #6, for instance.

In any case a type and style of architecture like Eastward Ho! Really does fascinate me and perhaps the greatest reason is because of that highly topographic “roller coaster” type of hole Eastward Ho! Appears to have so much of. We’re into many aspects of renaissance today in golf architecture---will the type of extreme hole topography of the likes of Fowler’s Eastward Ho! Ever make a comeback in popularity or even acceptability in a general sense?
« Last Edit: October 18, 2004, 05:42:47 AM by TEPaul »

Randy Van Sickle

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Re:Roller Coaster Golf: Eastward Ho!
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2004, 06:36:00 AM »
Other than shaping greens and setting tee boxes, Fowler moved very little earth when developing the course.  Thank the glaciers for all the earth moving.

I have a feeling that "Golf's Most Beloved Figure" will be thrilled to see the photo from the fairway of #8 - the 3 fairway cross bunkers have just been restored to Fowler's original design.  Two of them had been filled in over the years, and only the middle one was left.

The course is currently undergoing a significant restoration, in trying to get back to Fowler's original design.  In addition to the restoration of bunkers that have been filled in over the years, the maintenance of the course is going to change.  More native fescues will be restored in the rough, and there will be less water on the course, getting it firmer and faster.  Also , many of the greens complexes which have been shrinking over the years will be slowly enlarged back to their original sizes, providing for more interesting hole placements.  Approximately 200 trees have been removed so far, with an additional 200 coming down each winter over the next 2 years. BTW, based on my observations of original architectural renderings and photos from the early days, that depression in the bank on the par-3 7th was never a bunker, although it is easy to see why one would think that.

This has been a very interesting project to get off the ground, and it involved a great deal of cooperation with the local conservation commission.  Much of the golf course sits with in 100 feet of the top of a "coastal bank" which typically prohibits you from doing any work in this area.  Through good fortune and cooperation, all of the changes that were desired in these areas, particularly some work on tees and tree removal were approved.

Some excellent pictures, Paul!  Do you find that even the photos do not accurately represent some of the rises and fall in elevation though?

We have a set of "before" photos that I will present in a report here juxtaposed to the "after" photos, once the changes have had time to settle in and the maintenance changes have taken foot.  That will likely be 2 years from now, but I think will make for some interesting discussion.
Can't get back to RDGC soon enough

TEPaul

Re:Roller Coaster Golf: Eastward Ho!
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2004, 07:09:58 AM »
RandyVS:

Thanks for the informative and up to date information about what's been going on recently at Eastward Ho! I don't mean to pry but if possible it'd be nice to know your connection to Eastward Ho! since you seemed very informed.

It's interesting to know that the enormous feature on hole #7 that looks like an old sand bunker outline never was a sand bunker. In my opinion, features like that without sand fit and meld far more naturally into an overall site like Eastward Ho!  than a sand bunker does, and are surely every bit as effective as a sand bunker.

It's also interesting to know that Eastward Ho! plans to establish firmer and faster conditions "through the green" than in the recent past. This sounds good but may have an ultimate drawback in some instances. With the type of severe fairway topography Eastward Ho! seems to have so much of there very well may be some danger and inconvenience if the fairways are too firm and fast to hold the golf ball on some of those slopes. The likely result may be the collecting of balls into some very small areas and the consequent wear and tear on the turf in those small collection areas.

This has certainly gotten to be a problem on some high topography fairways such as PVGC's #17, NGLA's #16 and particularly Shinnecock's #10. With the speed and lack of friction on those fairways due to very low mowing heights golf balls tend to collect in very small areas which basically beats those area to death with divot marks. Perhaps Eastward Ho!  should go for firm and fast conditions "through the green" but strive to raise the fairway mowing height enough so more balls will get hung up on the grades of some of those fairways rather than always collect into a very small low spot. It would have the effect of making the course play more interesting and challenging if the golf ball would remain more on some of the uneven grades on those fairways rather than always collecting into flatter low spots!

Just a thought that could significantly effect both playability and maintenance!

Randy Van Sickle

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Re:Roller Coaster Golf: Eastward Ho!
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2004, 07:33:22 AM »
Tom -

I understand your warning about the firm and fast conditioning.  The project manager and superintendent are aware that the course will not be extremely firm and fast, but the objective is to get it firmer and faster than it has been in the recent past.  It seems that there was a period of time when a majority of people wanted their course to appear like AGNC, "lush and lovely", for example.  In order to get this hilly course looking very green, much water had to be dumped to keep the slope on the hills green.  As a result, this lead to many hanging lies in the rough on the hills, or balls collecting in specific areas of the fairway giving the dampness in depressions.

In any event, your point is well taken that if the course is too firm and fast, the problems you cited could arise.  I believe that we will have to rely on our super and recently new irrigation system to get the right blend.
Can't get back to RDGC soon enough

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Roller Coaster Golf: Eastward Ho!
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2004, 07:44:27 AM »
Mass is my favourite state for golf.  

Paul,

I am starting to think that way too, and except for Long Island being attached to New York, I would agree completely.

Here is a fuzzy picture from the roller coaster 10th at Wianno on The Cape from Ross.





Bill_McBride

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Re:Roller Coaster Golf: Eastward Ho!
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2004, 07:59:54 AM »
Northern Californians who've played Crystal Springs, also a Fowler design, will recognize some of its topography in the Eastward Ho! photos.  It's been a long time, but it seems to me there are a couple of holes there with similar wild fairways and elevation changes.

TEPaul

Re:Roller Coaster Golf: Eastward Ho!
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2004, 09:49:30 AM »
Certainly one of the things that makes me admire an architect like Fowler so much is the fact that it just ain't easy to arrange a routing such as Eastward Ho! clearly has whereby all that cool topography is just about in the exact correct spot on each hole to accomplish what it really does to the golf ball.

How many times must one of those old architects like Fowler have said to himself---"Oh shit, I only wish this cool topography was 50 yards over here or 100 yards over there and it would make my holes and their routing so much more acceptable?"

I admire the fact that they put together the jigsaw puzzles of these golf courses as well as they did but I guess we should recoginize that a lot of the sportiness and quirkiness of many of those old courses was because they were always limited by what they could do (to change things). The fact that todays architects can do much more to massively change the "pieces" (the holes and their topography) makes this kind of thing so much less likely to happen the way it once did.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2004, 09:51:04 AM by TEPaul »

Paul_Turner

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Re:Roller Coaster Golf: Eastward Ho!
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2004, 09:55:51 AM »
Eastward Ho! definitely looks to be a course that you have to play to get the right feel for it.  There's so much topography that it's difficult to visualise how a ball will react and where it will end up.

The course isn't quite as lush as my photos suggest.  It's a camera effect, that I just think looks good.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

TEPaul

Re:Roller Coaster Golf: Eastward Ho!
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2004, 11:42:22 AM »
I'm also trying to figure out if and how maintenance might diminish that old fashioned up and back fairway cut look when the mowers get close to the approaches to the greens! I wonder what method they use to turn those mowers in that area.

Paul_Turner

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Re:Roller Coaster Golf: Eastward Ho!
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2004, 12:47:12 PM »
It appears that this course doesn't make any of the Top 100 lists :P  Why on earth not?
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Roller Coaster Golf: Eastward Ho!
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2004, 01:22:58 PM »
It appears that this course doesn't make any of the Top 100 lists :P  Why on earth not?

My guess is that with open minded people like Mr Ward on the panels, 6200 yards will not be taken seriously. The old courses on The Cape all seem to be shorter (see Slapper's Sporty thread), so they don't seem to get the respect they may deserve. However, I was told by a legacy member of Eastward Ho! that they have something like a 20+ year waiting list, so they probably don't care a whole lot about The Jersey Golfer panel.  ;)

Andy Hughes

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Re:Roller Coaster Golf: Eastward Ho!
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2004, 02:30:24 PM »
Paul,
Except for the wild topography, the thing that most struck me was the width of the fairways. Are they as wide as they appear in your pictures, or is this a "the camera adds 15 pounds" kind of effect?
Andy
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Paul_Turner

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Re:Roller Coaster Golf: Eastward Ho!
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2004, 05:10:39 PM »
Andy

The fairways are generous.   The 5th is probably the widest and it needs to be with those undulations.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

TEPaul

Re:Roller Coaster Golf: Eastward Ho!
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2004, 07:54:16 AM »
Randy or PaulT:

Tell me something about that 6th hole?

George Pazin

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Re:Roller Coaster Golf: Eastward Ho!
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2004, 11:14:48 AM »
Those are fantastic photos, Paul. I am amazed that you managed to capture the topography so well. Seems like most times I try to photograph a course, everything gets flattened out. Well done.

The terrain really has to be seen in person to be believed. For some reason today, it seems that dramatic elevation changes are fine, but dramatic right to left (or vice versa) slopes are taboo.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Paul_Turner

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Re:Roller Coaster Golf: Eastward Ho!
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2004, 11:19:42 AM »
Tom

I really had only a very quick sneak look, Randy would know better.  The photo titled the "6th looking back" is the best of the whole, hole.  You can see from the fairway pic that the left half of the fairway is massively sloped on the left side.  So I think the play is to play up into that slope and let the ball filter back into the valley.  But you don't want the ball slinging back too far to the right otherwise the approach is blinded by that ridge with the 3 small trees on it.

I think the ideal drive, for the strong player, is right along the top of the spine on the left, trying to get as much of a boost as possible...to maybe past that right hand side ridge to the narrowest part of the fairway.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2004, 11:20:29 AM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Michael Moore

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Re:Roller Coaster Golf: Eastward Ho!
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2004, 11:21:11 AM »
Tom Paul -

I'll tell you about the sixth hole.

I four-putted a hole location that was just over the ridge, i.e., my first putt rolled back far away and I used classic overcorrecting methodologies to put my second putt twenty feet above the hole.

It is the most dramatic tee shot I have ever undertaken, over the corner of a mountain with the awesome backdrop of the ocean and sandbar.  A well struck three wood will funnel right dow to a flat lie with about 130 yards remaining. Anything that stays on the side of the mountain is dead.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Matt_Ward

Re:Roller Coaster Golf: Eastward Ho!
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2004, 11:28:30 AM »
Paul:

Do you have any pictures of the supreme challenge with the ending hole?

I have played Eastward Ho about 3-4 times when in the Cape area and I'm glad there is a strong movement on the fast and firm side. The course has generally been slow from the times I have played. If the conditions allow for the bounce of the ball the qualities of the design will only become better.

A great natural site and the golf is indeed a fun brew to play.

P.S. I've seen so much chatter about unique short courses and when I see how some are rated as textbook examples when compared to the likes of Eastward Ho! it makes me wonder what people are looking at.

TEPaul

Re:Roller Coaster Golf: Eastward Ho!
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2004, 11:54:06 AM »
Michael and Paul:

Thanks for the info on hole #6. How long is that hole? I guess I was also wondering if there's perhaps an "ultra secret", "theory of contrary opinion", "double reward" option of playing an approach to #6 from the 7th green!   ;)

And also---is it possible for a long hitter from the tips to bomb a drive all the way down to that flat area below the green (where there seems to be some standing water in that photo)?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2004, 11:57:18 AM by TEPaul »

Randy Van Sickle

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Re:Roller Coaster Golf: Eastward Ho!
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2004, 12:22:42 PM »
Paul and Michael - Very astute comments.  Most players typically play the tee shot to go either straight down the throat of the valley, or down the left side slightly, which will pick up a generous bounce from the hill down into the valley.  It is quite true that a tee ball hit too far right will either be on the hill (or mountain, as it is referred to here), or will at least end up being obstructed for the approach shot.  There is a samll grassy isalnd about 1/2 acre in size out in the bay that provides a good target from the tee.

Bravo, Tom!

The tee shot that you descibed actually is named after a long-hitting former member whose name will be witheld to protect the innocent.  If you get the tee ball over the 7th green, you are actually left with a DOWNHILL approach shot to the 6th green from about 120 yards.  Pity the players coming up the 7th, however!  If the tee ball on this strategy is left short of the 7th green, you are facing an 8-foot "wall" that is the back of the 7th green on the approach, or worse yet, your ball is sitting in the rough in a hanging lie (for a righty) off this "wall"

Paul must have taken these pictures on Friday or Saturday, because we had about 1.5 inches of rain on Thursday last week, which left the standing water in that area.

Quick note about that valley in front of the 6th green:  after "The Perfect Storm" on October 30th, 1991, there were several LARGE boats obstructing the approach to this green.  One catamaran sailboat must have been about 35' long.  Quite a bit of standing water that day, too.
Can't get back to RDGC soon enough

Randy Van Sickle

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Re:Roller Coaster Golf: Eastward Ho!
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2004, 12:25:06 PM »
Forgot - The hole is 405 yards, and with the equipment these days, it is very possible for a well-hit shot to get down to the middle of the Valley inside 100 yards.  It better be straight, though, or it will end up on the hill on the right, or perhaps in that big depression on the hill leading up to 7.
Can't get back to RDGC soon enough

TEPaul

Re:Roller Coaster Golf: Eastward Ho!
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2004, 01:31:10 PM »
"The tee shot that you descibed actually is named after a long-hitting former member whose name will be witheld to protect the innocent.  If you get the tee ball over the 7th green, you are actually left with a DOWNHILL approach shot to the 6th green from about 120 yards.  Pity the players coming up the 7th, however!  If the tee ball on this strategy is left short of the 7th green, you are facing an 8-foot "wall" that is the back of the 7th green on the approach, or worse yet, your ball is sitting in the rough in a hanging lie (for a righty) off this "wall"

Randy:

Now that's what I call REAL risk/reward!! To have the steep back of the next green serve as an extremely penal feature for a slightly misplayed high risk tee shot is about the coolest thing I've heard in my six years on this site! That Herbert Fowler was an architectural innovator and revolutionist of the highest imaginable water!! I guess there probably wasn't all that much libelity reciprocity between the US and Britain in that day anyway or else Herbert may have figured---why not just let these colonists kill each other since we Brits didn't get them all when we had the opportunity.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2004, 01:36:52 PM by TEPaul »

SPDB

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Re:Roller Coaster Golf: Eastward Ho!
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2004, 02:45:33 PM »
TEPaul -
The 6th hole is where the genius of the routing is revealed. The holes get out to a point on the 3d hole pretty quickly, and then turn back against the bluff before heading inland. You then take another turn and head back out toward the bluff on the 6th hole. Its green is one of the great spots on the cape.