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Steve Lapper

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Sporty Old Courses: Myopia v. Somerset Hills
« on: October 17, 2004, 05:19:27 PM »
Gentlemen of the Treehouse,

    As a few of you know, several GCA'ers made their maiden appearance up north at the Myopia Hunt Club this past week. Fortunately, most of us made it out of town before the Yankees made mincemeat of the local sandlot-ball team and thus avoided having to laugh out loud, too hard and in person, at the frustrated fans of Beantown! :o

   I think I can safely represent for all of us in attendance that the common opinion was "marvelous, fun, charming, sporty, with strong examples of drive and approach placement difficulties, tough small greens, and an example of wonderful golf course architecture and features. I, for one, played poorly, but still loved the course from every angle!

    My question is this: Why does a Somerset Hills (or maybe even others like Shoreacres, Camargo, The Creek, Baltusrol Upper, Forsgate and Maidstone,) consistently rank so very much higher, and thus thought so highly of over Myopia? Many of you know that due to my proximity of location (living in Far Hills) and opportunties to play Somerset Hills, I've consistenlty defended SH as a wonderful sporty course that might well have one of the best set's of par 3's in existence.

    After seeing Myopia, I was totally overwhelmed with the greater quality of the entire course, especially the par 3's. The variety of length and challenge (the shortest at 140yds might well be the toughest to make par on, despite a 253yd long single-shotter) easily eclipse SH's collection. The 4's are especially strong and interesting as the length premium quickly takes a back seat to absolute strategy. That is not always the case at SH. The 5's are the weakest at both locales, but MHC's clearly have no less than a slight edge in the stiffness to par category.

     Most often, critics of SH cite the finish of 17 & 18 as the weakest link on the closing nine. MHC has no such questionable finale. The 18th demands a perfect tee shot to the correct side of severely sloping fairway to  get anything close to a pin anywhere on the front 2/3's of the green. The 17th might be questionable, but the green is so small(17-20 paces long and a bit less wide), only the best struck and thought out approach iron leaves a birdie putt.

    The old argument that MHC is too short for modern technology is hogwash. Granted, a few of the short fours are driveable, but the tiny greens and severe nearby hazards quickly spell double bogey or higher if a valiant effort goes astray. Hit and putt the ball and you will score. Miss either and you will struggle. By no means do I infer that either course defends itself like a big man-style track, old or new. Neither will ever hold back the scratch golfer who is on their game like a Bethpage Black or Oakmont.

    Yet these sporty courses are the type that 36 hole days and dreams are made of.  Both ooze charm and both beckon any afficinado back to the first tee after stepping off the 18th green, however, Myopia really separated itself, for me, from all those other sporty courses I cited initially. It even made a reasonable challenge to one of my old favorites: Garden City Men's Club. MHC shares some very similar features; small, hidden beneath the horizon, sand hazards, tilted greens that look benign from beyond the heather, and ugly style rough that moves along the fairways at interesting angles to the green. Both courses permit and encourage the ground game and routinely reject the wrong aerial approaches. GCMC is no doubt a slighly more complete, championship-style course, but it's recent bouts of inconsistent maintenence (hopefully solved with a new greenskeeper) don't do it any favors. MHC seems to just feel like maintenence consists of mowing the greens and watching the moss grow.

    Rather than let this thread disintegrate, or get hijacked into, trolley debate among the site's most regular blathering space-fillers....
    I propose a well-reasoned discussion of the merits of the sporty courses (Matt Ward, you might have to abstain from all but your regular regurgitation on Forsgate ;)) and their appropriate and relative features. Discuss!
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Sporty Old Courses: Myopia v. Somerset Hills
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2004, 06:21:15 PM »
1. In the case of Garden City, it really took 2 visits for me to really appreciate the course. It is not "subtle" in a Ross type of way, it is really just hidden below the horizon, so you have to look for it, or else it finds you. The clubhouse is easy to appreciate upon entry.

2. I have not played Somerset or Myopia, but if you add Eastward Ho!, they are my top 3 "sporty courses" I would like to see, with Sankaty Head on Nantucket and Prout's Neck in Maine on the standby list.


Patrick_Mucci

Re:Sporty Old Courses: Myopia v. Somerset Hills
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2004, 07:58:52 PM »
Steve Lapper,

If the nines at Somerset Hills were reversed, as they once were, wouldn't the three finishing holes be fantastic, blowing away many other contemporary courses in a comparison ?

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sporty Old Courses: Myopia v. Somerset Hills
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2004, 09:08:38 PM »
Pat,

  No question the frequent knock on SHCC would be gone. What are now 17 & 18 would still have little special appeal (although I have always maintained that the green complex of the now 18th is meritous).

   I don't know if the 7-8-9 stretch would "blow away" so many others, but it would certainly rank among the finest "match play" holes anyone ask for. The temptation of birdie vs. resistance of par rests on each shot on each hole, yet the 9th is nothing special if not played with a in-course OB rule, don't you think?

  Let me be perfectly clear....I think many holes at SHCC are among the best of all sporty courses and hold their own more than amply against most anything of contemporary nature. Holes like 2*,7, 8, 11,12,13, 15,and 16 are all very solid examples of beautifully designed & constructed architectural gems (some of which, in fact, it appears Tillie may have historically borrowed from others).

    None of this would change the overall edge I would award to MHC and Leeds...the balance and otherwise mediocre holes there demand a much higher shot value and are more resistant to scoring than the likes of #'s 3,5,6,10,12(much easier and less complete than say #9 at MHC), 17 & 18.

   Please tell me Pat...why don't I get the sheer stubbornness of the SHCC members to go back to the old order of nines? Are they that fixated on the staid to ignore the benefits?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2004, 09:10:01 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Brian_Gracely

Re:Sporty Old Courses: Myopia v. Somerset Hills
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2004, 10:34:38 PM »
Do courses like MHC have the same sort of feel as Prestwick GC in Scotland, both from a course and club perspective?  

TEPaul

Re:Sporty Old Courses: Myopia v. Somerset Hills
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2004, 06:01:11 AM »
Rather than discuss Myopia VS Somerset Hills, I'd prefer to discuss the assets or drawbacks of courses such as Myopia, SH, GCGC, Eastward Ho!, Misquamicut et al VS the general type and style of architecture we find today, or the type and style we generally find following WW2.

In examples such as those above VS the look and type and style of post WW2 architecture there're so many differences which have huge effects on playability and modern golfers' sensibilities.

We are into a renaissance in some ways in golf and in architecture today but will most all the interesting aspects of some of that old architecture ever make a comeback in how modern architecture in the future is built and treated? Or, I guess, the ultimate question is should future architecture even try to do that? Or should it go on and try to develop something that's perhaps the best of both types and styles---despite how different the one inherently is from the other?

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sporty Old Courses: Myopia v. Somerset Hills
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2004, 08:54:17 AM »
Brian,

    I was canceled at the last minute when due to play Prestwick years ago so I cannot make an accurate assessment of the comparison between the two.

Tom,

  Your reply is EXACTLY what I hoped would evolve from my post. It seems to me, the differences between the post WWII architecture and the past are quite considerable and nowhere (other than maybe Pac Dunes & Sand Hills, and maybe Friars Head) have I seen ANY embodiment of the look and feel so brillantly seen in some of the older sporty courses.

I don't really believe today's renaissance has been successful at limiting the holes to the lands original countours; something I do believe was far more common in the old tracks. Granted that many of the newer courses do reach some form of success in "creating" interesting aspects and terrain features, yet nowhere other than some of the exceptions mentioned above, do I see the real quirky, yet natural architecture that spells charm and sportiness. Can anyone say that the modern-styles of hazards have anywhere near the charm of the older ones. Even Doak's and C&C's efforts, while very natural appearing, don't evoke or ooze the same kind of original charm the older(often more hidden) hazards did.

  It would be very interesting to see a modern architect try to build something so quirky, unique and borrowed from the best of the sporty past. I, for one, would embrace such an effort, but would the general golfing public?
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

TEPaul

Re:Sporty Old Courses: Myopia v. Somerset Hills
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2004, 09:32:27 AM »
" It would be very interesting to see a modern architect try to build something so quirky, unique and borrowed from the best of the sporty past. I, for one, would embrace such an effort, but would the general golfing public?"

Steve:

It certainly would be interesting. I think there're a number of architects today that just might consider doing that but it seems undeniable that it does make even them somewhat nervous probably for the very reason of your question---would the general golfing public embrace it? We should also recoginize that it definitely isn't just them it may make nervous---it probably very much makes their clients nervous too, and of course for completely obvious reasons.

There's no question at all, in my mind, that various things that much of that old sporty, quirky architecture contains is generally not popular today or has been assumed to have  things about it that should not be done in golf architecture today or in the future for a number of reasons which basically all have to do with formulaics.

One of the primary examples is the case of blindness. It's very ironic (although perhaps something that very few today even realize) but once upon a time the blind shot was particularly prized in golf and architecture and for a number of ironic reasons evolved to become wholly unpopular. So the question is can something like that break through today's negative perceptions and become popular again for the very reasons it once was?

There's no question to me that "principles" in golf archtiecture definitely do change over time in the minds of golfers. The question and perhaps the trick is---can they be regenerated to what they once were---at least partially in the name of variety and "difference" in golf and architecture? It seems to me that in the entire evolution of golf and architecture there always has been a drive or desire amongst practically all to make the art of golf architecture and the game of golf too into one of "sameness" as is true in most all other games (Behr called it "the game mind of man" and he felt it was an inherently negative aspect inflicted on golf and its architecture).  

I think it's particularly true in golf and its architecture that the idea of sameness (formulaics etc) should be resisted at every turn as much as possible. DIFFERENCE itself is probably the life's blood of the entire art of golf architecture and how that factors into all the ways golf can be played.

Golf and its architecture probably needs to always keep in its mind that it must remain as different from something like tennis and the necessary sameness of tennis's playing field as it possibly can. Why is that? Probably for the very simple reason that golf is one of the few games or sports where the contestants never vie for the same ball! Understanding how much that apparently simple fact and the why of it really means may be the most important thing of all to understand and truly appreciate about golf and its architecture!

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Sporty Old Courses: Myopia v. Somerset Hills
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2004, 11:15:18 AM »
Steve Lapper,

It may be because of the location of the finishing greens, relative to the clubhouse.  The current 18th seems to be more convenient and the play more easily observable from the clubhouse.

I don't like an internal out of bounds rule for # 9, however, the danger seems more likely to occur off of # 1 tee by cutting the corner over the 3rd green.  Perhaps tree growth has reduced that problem, but, there was a time when helmets and flak jackets weren't a bad idea, when putting on
# 3 green.

I like # 9.  But, wouldn't a set of fairway bunkers on # 1 be a better deterent to shortening the play of the hole.

I also like # 10 as a starting hole, rather than # 1, but that's just my preference for easing a golfer into the round rather then providing a severe test off the first tee.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sporty Old Courses: Myopia v. Somerset Hills
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2004, 03:56:09 PM »
Pat,

   As for raw danger, helmets and full body armor should well be worn on #3 green as it sits right at the right-side corner of a dogleg right fairway. Just a few trees of little defensive nature exist and none would well enough block a stinging fade or push. It remains an ongoing problem but there are no plans that I know of to shorten the hole any.

  As for putting fairway bunkers on #1, that is antithetical to the real problem. #9 has been rendered a gimmick by virtue of limiting the drive to 240yds (to lay-up before the Sahara bunker) or take out the long tee and rip it down the first's fairway. Any new bunkers on 1 designed to impede the shortening of #9 would look dramatically out of place and ill-concieved. I would suggest the club think about moving the entire Sahara & Mound complex further back towards the tee (Hell might freeze over first before any dramatic cahnge like that takes place).
 
  All significant competitions there (inc. the championship flight for the club and last year's MGA Amateur) declared #1's fairway an in-course OB.

  I 100% agree with you that #10 would make an excellent starting hole...a very good long four played as a five with a green that get's one ready for the sloped green's to come.



 
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Sporty Old Courses: Myopia v. Somerset Hills
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2004, 05:45:49 PM »
Steve Lapper,

Is there any room to move the tee back on # 9, even if the angle was altered a little ?

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sporty Old Courses: Myopia v. Somerset Hills
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2004, 09:08:24 PM »
Pat,

     It could be put on the roof of the pro shop!

    Seriously, putting it on the slope side of the 9th's green  would be the only option and it rather inconcievable, don't you think?

S
« Last Edit: October 18, 2004, 09:08:45 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Sporty Old Courses: Myopia v. Somerset Hills
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2004, 10:17:40 PM »
Steve Lapper,

I was referencing the tee on # 9.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sporty Old Courses: Myopia v. Somerset Hills
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2004, 05:22:25 AM »
Pat,

   Sorry..I got temporarily confused after watching the ALCS! :o

    Interesting point...There appears to be an ancient tee (now under hay) just behind the back tee of #2. It would change the angle ever so slightly, but seem as if it would only add approx. 10 yds, I do believe they could put a new tee closer to the road and possibly gain 25 -30yds....I'll be by there soon and will check....

   It would make sense to lengthen this hole and readjust the tee in order to prevent using the 1st fairway as a shortcut. 8)
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

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Re:Sporty Old Courses: Myopia v. Somerset Hills
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2004, 08:08:19 AM »
 It would be very interesting to see a modern architect try to build something so quirky, unique and borrowed from the best of the sporty past. I, for one, would embrace such an effort, but would the general golfing public?

I would say it has been done with Brian Silva's Black Creek in Chattanooga, TN for one.  

I remember this course getting a huge initial reception on GCA, but I have not heard anything about it recently from anyone.  Could it be that this quirky "old-timey" design has even been forgotten by the purists here at GCA?  How has it been received by the unwashed masses?  Does anyone know how their membership levels have gone, are they on track for their plans?

Just wondering what anyone knows about how they are doing at Black Creek?
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"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

Scott Wicker

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Re:Sporty Old Courses: Myopia v. Somerset Hills
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2004, 11:39:08 AM »
Black Creek is doing fine.  We currently have 315 members with a goal of 360.  In a recent readers' poll published by the local paper, Black Creek was voted the Chattanooga area's best golf course.  A little club up the road that you may have heard of, The Honors Course, finished second.  We look forward to hosting the medal play portion of the US Mid-am next year with The Honors.  Thanks for the interest.

Scott Wicker

Scott Wicker

pdrake

Re:Sporty Old Courses: Myopia v. Somerset Hills
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2004, 03:05:35 PM »
Black Creek is nice course, but it is not in the same league as the Honors Course.  THC is one of Dye's best routings and the atmosphere there is one of the best in the south.

As far as comparing SHills to Myopia......I was a non-resident member at Somerset for a number of years and I for one can state Myopia is head and shoulders above Somerset.  I could play Myopia everyday for the rest of my life and be content not to play anywhere else.  It is a great member's course.  It may not be a great tournament course due to its length, but I have yet to see a single digit handicapper break 80 on their first trip through the hills of South Hamilton.

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sporty Old Courses: Myopia v. Somerset Hills
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2004, 03:16:35 PM »
Black Creek is doing fine.  We currently have 315 members with a goal of 360.  

That is good to hear.  I just had not heard much about Black Creek lately.  

It got alot of attention on here when it first opened, but then I think everyone's attention strayed.  I would like to hear more about it and see any more current pictures that anyone might have.

Scott, are you a member there or work there?
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sporty Old Courses: Myopia v. Somerset Hills
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2004, 09:37:47 PM »
Since Somersett Hills has come up I will take this opportunity to ask a couple questions.  Since we down here in the sunny south dont get as many opportunities to see the old classics as you NE guys.  I was struck by a couple of things when I had the chance to see Somersett Hills last week.  I loved the place, the course and the feel of the place in general.  I have said it many times there are so many great old clubs up there that we just dont have down here.  We have some great modern courses, and a few old clubs but not the sheer number that you have up there.

Again indulge me since I am so excited about my newfound ability to post better pictures, I will be doing alot of it in the future I can see.  (Finally an outlet for all these digital images I take).

I loved the course, but there are some things that if a modern architect did it today we would all think he was on drugs.

First question I had was about the green at the 5th hole shown here:

Are these dramatic contours on the back right portion of the green original?   They are quite strange.  Does anyone know the origins of these?  Any stories?  What are they called?  I loved the green, but these things are wild there cant be any pinnable positions back there are there?

Secondly these mounds between the 5th and 6th holes:

If a modern architect did this he would be chastized on here, heaven forbid if Rees did it there would be a call for his head.  But if these are indeed original why are "Tille Drops" OK when "Reeses Pieces" are not? These look more unnatural than anything I have ever seen Rees do.

I loved SH version of Redan and after having played Shinnecock the day before I felt I had seen two great ones.  Too bad I couldnt make the NGLA thing work out on the afternoon after Shinnecock.

Somersett Hills' Par 3 2nd hole "Redan"

I have a few other pics of SH, but no more time tonight, plus I think people might be getting tired of the sheer number of pictures I have posted in the last couple days.  So goodnight.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2004, 09:40:29 PM by Daryl K. Boe »
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Sporty Old Courses: Myopia v. Somerset Hills
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2004, 10:08:36 AM »
Daryl,

I don't know the origin of the wild humps and contours in the 5th green, but they are neat.

As to the mounds, or dolomites, it's possible that they were functional as debris mounds.

As to the redan at Somerset Hills, I've always found it to be an extreme redan as there seems to be a double tier within the green rather then a single surface.  It's certainly another neat hole, but, it's different in its design and play from some of the others like those at NGLA, Piping Rock, The Creek, Yale, Shinnecock and others.

We are lucky in that there are so many terrific courses in our area.  Many have never been heard of.  The Knoll, Essex County, Mountain Ridge and Montclair come to mind.  I cite these courses because they are all within 15 minutes of my home.  There are many more and the really great thing about all of these courses is their variety.  Crestmont and Essex Fells, courses right across the street from one another, and also within 15 minutes of my home are vastly different in their design, look and feel despite the fact that only Eagle Rock Avenue seperates them.

T_MacWood

Re:Sporty Old Courses: Myopia v. Somerset Hills
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2004, 10:29:29 AM »
Tillinghast collaborated with Peter Lees at Somerset Hills. Lees was a famous greenkeeper at Royal Mid Surrey, who wth JH Taylor performed a revolutionary redesign at RMS that included mounding very similiar to what you find at Somerset Hills.

Lees first came to the US at the request of Macdonald to help with Lido (he was considered the world's best greenkeeper). While at Lido he moonlighted in design and construction, often with Tilly. A number of the Macdonald-like features at SH I reckon were influenced by Lees.

TEPaul

Re:Sporty Old Courses: Myopia v. Somerset Hills
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2004, 11:44:39 AM »
Daryle Boe asked";

"Secondly, these mounds between the 5th and 6th holes."

"If a modern architect did this he would be chastized on here, heaven forbid if Rees did it there would be a call for his head.  But if these are indeed original why are "Tille Drops" OK when "Reeses Pieces" are not? These look more unnatural than anything I have ever seen Rees do."

Daryle;

Regarding those mounds----this is one of the reasons this website really can be an excellent resourse on old architecture. There's an "In My Opinion" piece on this website by Tommy Naccarato entitled "In Praise of the Ralph Miller Librarary" in which an excerpt ("The Evolution of the Bunker") from a book ("The Art of Golf") by England's JH Taylor is offered.

The ideas behind the creation and evolution of an architectural form of mounds or hillocks and hollows is explained in detail. JH Taylor takes the credit for conceiving of these man-made mounds or hills and hollows referred to by some as "dolomites", "Mid-Surrey Mounds" or "alpinization".

All the reasons Taylor conceived of these interesting architectural features is in that excerpt entitled "The Evolution of the Bunker" which was written in 1911. Peter Lees was Mid Surrey's greenskeeper and obviously assisted Taylor in creating these unique mounds at Mid Surrey. Then Lees emigrated to this country and became involved in various early projects on the East Coast, Somerset Hills (1917) obviously being one of them.

The rational behind those mounds was essentially to create a more progressive penalty in architecture and golf whereby the wider or worse a shot the more penalizing it might become very much unlike the old very penal cross features or hazards (bunkers, or sometimes called "cop bunkers") that basically penalized the less good player and hardly ever the good player. Those mounds were a way of counteracting that perceived problem in early "penal" architecture.

That style of architecture---Taylor's artifical mounds, hillocks and hollows, "dolomites" "Mid Surrey Mounds" or "alpinization" basically all being the same thing and for the same basic priniciple, seen in that photo above at Somerset Hills was tried for a time at both Merion East (9th) and PVGC (3rd), and obviously some other early courses but was rather quickly given up and altered to something else.

Why was it rather quickly given up in early architecture? Probably for the reasons most of us can see---it was very strange and artificial looking despite what Taylor may have said to the contrary.

Today, it's probably looked at as a most interesting early architectural curiostiy! At least that's the way I look at it. If some architect today decided to use it again as a tribute to an early and interesting time in the evolution of golf architecture, I, for one, certainly wouldn't object to that, but it would look no more natural to me today than it did back then in the teens!

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Sporty Old Courses: Myopia v. Somerset Hills
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2004, 01:36:01 PM »
TEPaul,

Those mounds are particularly difficult to maintain, and perhaps that explains their demise.

Their location isn't restricted to greenside locations, they can be found in driving LZ's as well.

TEPaul

Re:Sporty Old Courses: Myopia v. Somerset Hills
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2004, 01:54:14 PM »
"TEPaul,
Those mounds are particularly difficult to maintain, and perhaps that explains their demise."

Pat:

Oh really? How do you know that? Do you think they're as much and as difficult to maintain as their counterpart square footage in sand bunkering and surrounds?

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sporty Old Courses: Myopia v. Somerset Hills
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2004, 03:25:45 PM »
I knew there would be some good knowledge out there on these questions.  I saw the name of the hole "Dolomites" but was not sure what that was.

Patrick,

Yes I too thought the green at Somerset's Redan was one of the more severe ones I had ever seen.  But I loved the hole.

I just about gave you a call when I was up there, but it was such short notice I did not want to intrude.

I cant wait to get back there again someday.
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."