Great par 5s to finish

« **on:** September 30, 2004, 06:34:40 AM »

None of our current Open Championship courses ends with a par 5. (OK, the 18ths at Birkdale and Carnoustie used to be fives). In fact I'm having some difficulty in thinking of great courses which even finish with par 5s, let alone top rate ones. Royal Co Down, Baltusrol, The National Golf Links, Pebble Beach? Is this merely chance or is a par 5 generally thought of as a weak finisher?

« **Reply #1 on:** September 30, 2004, 08:30:48 AM »

I think a par 5 finish is great, there can be a huge swing on score say with anything from an eagle to a bogey. Save the excitement for the last hole

« **Reply #2 on:** September 30, 2004, 08:56:38 AM »

The only thing our client has insisted upon at Sebonack has been to change the 18th hole from a long par 4 to a medium par 5 [545 yards]. He didn't want it to be an automatic bogey for the members, nor an automatic birdie if it was a really short 5, either.

He repeatedly cites Pebble Beach, Pacific Dunes and National Golf Links as great finishing holes.

« **Reply #3 on:** September 30, 2004, 09:48:10 AM »

Wow. Sebonack will be a par 73.

« **Reply #4 on:** October 01, 2004, 07:38:52 AM »

Quote from: Mark_Rowlinson on September 30, 2004, 06:34:40 AM

In fact I'm having some difficulty in thinking of great courses which even finish with par 5s, let alone top rate ones.

Mark,

Yale's is at the very least, the hardest Par 5 finisher I have played.

Carne in Ireland is a roller coaster par 5 at 18,

« **Reply #5 on:** October 01, 2004, 08:47:39 AM »

Mark,

It's interesting to note that many, if not most of CBM's courses finished with a par 5. I would have to assume that it was part of his design philosophy. Some that didn't finish with a par 5 had # 17 as a par 5. But, there seems to be a clear pattern, a design intent to finish with a par 5.

NGLA, Piping Rock, The Creek, Yale, Sleepy Hollow.

« **Reply #6 on:** October 01, 2004, 09:03:10 AM »

In Forrest's book, Routing the Course, the ASGCA questionnaire respondants said there is a stigma attached to a par 73 course by a 3:1 margin - 77%.

« **Reply #7 on:** October 01, 2004, 09:19:44 AM »

There is another par 73 course that finishes with a great par 5.

Kapalua Plantation.

Pacific Dunes' 18th is a bear. Bandon Dunes' 18th is a fun finisher.

« **Reply #8 on:** October 01, 2004, 10:18:41 AM »

Waterville (tough when the wind is blowing), K Club.

« **Reply #9 on:** October 01, 2004, 10:25:59 AM »

are you saying the 18th at Carnoustie *isn't* a par 5 anymore?

« **Reply #10 on:** October 01, 2004, 12:12:11 PM »

Clifton,

Not for the pros it isn't. In the 1999 Open it was a 487-yard par 4. The course planner which I have gives it as a 516 yard par 5 from the Championship tee, 444-yard par 4 from the white medal tee and it's a par 4 from all the other tees including the ladies'.

Patrick,

Interesting what you say about CBM often finishing with a par 5. Do you think this compromised his routing? A parallel is Javier Arana, who (I think) always contrived that his 17th hole would be a par 3 and one of his holes would have a fairway with a tree in the middle. I don't know enough of his work to know whether this was a good thing or a bad thing, but it at lkeast begs the question.

« **Reply #11 on:** October 01, 2004, 05:32:27 PM »

Mark,

Quote from: Mark_Rowlinson on October 01, 2004, 12:12:11 PM

Patrick,

Interesting what you say about CBM often finishing with a par 5. Do you think this compromised his routing?

Quite to the contrary I think the finishing hole par 5's complimented or enhanced his routing and the play of the golf course.

While The Creeks finishing par 5 may be both unique and a hybrid, the finishing par 5's at Yale, Piping Rock and NGLA are spectacular and make for an exciting finish.

Perhaps part of CBM's talent or genius was arranging his designs/routings such that the golf course finished with a terrific par 5.

I haven't had the time to research it, but perhaps George Bahto can chime in and let us know if he's discovered anything along the lines of a predisposition on CBM's part to finish with a par 5. [/color]

« **Reply #12 on:** October 01, 2004, 05:42:06 PM »

One of the unique and I thought, really cool aspects of Pinon Hills original routing, was fininshing with back-to-back par 5's. Here's the kicker, they go in the same direction. Straight into the prevailing wind. And when it blows here, it blows steady and hard.

What other par value hole, has the ability to test all aspects of one's mind, and game? And what better place than the final stretch?

« **Reply #13 on:** October 01, 2004, 06:19:28 PM »

Adam Clayman,

Baltusrol Lower finishes with back to back par 5's.
Both in the same general direction as well, and if your match goes extra holes, the 19th hole will be a par 5 as well.

« **Reply #14 on:** October 01, 2004, 07:05:44 PM »

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on October 01, 2004, 06:19:28 PM

.. and if your match goes extra holes, the 19th hole will be a par 5 as well.

that comment deserves a wink

« **Reply #15 on:** October 01, 2004, 07:57:32 PM »

Patrick, That is really cool. Wink or no wink. What's the stretch of fours, like?

« **Reply #16 on:** October 01, 2004, 08:22:17 PM »

rgkeller

Sebonack will be par 35-37=72

#18 may play as a par four should a professional event be played there. In that case, par would be par 35-36=71.

« **Reply #17 on:** October 01, 2004, 09:17:54 PM »

Adam Clayman,

My dad eagled # 18 to get into a playoff, and then birdied the third playoff hole, a difficult par 4, to defeat 9 pros, including Doug Ford, in qualifying for the US Open years ago, so that stretch has some special significance for me.

The par 4's are very good, but the length of the golf course from the back tees today has removed it from play for the membership and all but the best professional players.

I like the golf course, but not from all the way back.

I only hope it retains the design integrity that Tillinghast envisioned when he designed it. Time will tell.

« **Reply #18 on:** October 01, 2004, 09:50:12 PM »

#18 at The Beverly Country Club is a very special five par finisher.

599 yards from the tips, the drive has to 'turn the corner' at 306 yards to reach the green.

Jack Nicklaus was convinced he could hit it over the oak tree at the corner in the '67 Western. Despite hitting the tree with each of his drives, he still won the championship.

« **Reply #19 on:** October 01, 2004, 10:56:27 PM »

I played Baltusrol today and walked around the back tee on #17 (but wasn't foolhardy enough to play from it). It will measure something around 650 yards for next year's PGA Championship. I think the 18th is the lesser of two evils in this case, but there is that plaque in the middle of the fairway where Nicklaus hit a 1-iron onto the green in the '67 Open.

The new Trump National course in New Jersey also has a par-5 closer that will measure well over 600 yards, with an uphill tee shot.

« **Reply #20 on:** October 02, 2004, 06:10:49 AM »

If Baltusrol #17 is 650 yards does that take the Sahara Desert out of the equation or is it alwys now irrelevant to the professionals?

« **Reply #21 on:** October 02, 2004, 12:35:54 PM »

Another fine Raynor design, Fox Chapel, has a creek running parallel along the first400 yards of its 574 yard closing hole . That same creek angles right to left across the the fairway at between 190 and 165 yards from the green creating a go, no go lay-up decision for your second shot. The hole was restored recently, with the fairway being moved back closer to the lateral water hazard in the right side drive zone. It is one of the best par 5 finishers that I have played .

« **Reply #22 on:** October 02, 2004, 01:30:19 PM »

Mark, that sounds great. I always like holes which have a hazard, be it water, a string of bunkers, or a gully, crossing on the diagonal. It greatly increases the fun of choice.

« **Reply #23 on:** October 02, 2004, 03:49:57 PM »

Mark, I agree the Fox Chapel final hole is very appealing.Ialso like the 557 yard closer by William Langford at Harrison hills in Attica Indiana. It has some wonderful rolling terrain on the
way to a green that sits in a natural- feeling bowl.

« **Reply #24 on:** October 02, 2004, 05:36:22 PM »

Mark

If I am not mistaken the cross bunker on 17 at Baltusrol is close to 200 yards from the green. It was never driveable and could only come into play if the rough was very high and one could not clear it on a second shot. Moving the tee back perhaps brings it a bit more into play for this reason.

Cliff

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